I can be very good for one’s self-esteem to examine someone else’s conscience and apologize for his transgressions.

I’d like to apologize for my typo, but thought someone else might apologize for me. Thanks in advance.

I apologize for not apologizing for my apology.

They have a good point about the complicity of Africans themselves with the slave trade. However, apologizing for the misdeeds of past generations is pretty much a waste of time. Perpetrators and victims are all long dead. Correcting corrupt behavior going forward would be a useful response.

I don’t know about the corporate apology thing, but it’s nice to read something about the reality of the slave trade. Black people captured and sold other black people to white people and Arabs, who eventually brought them to the new world. All have sinned…

Actually the racial categories are anachronistic. In a manner, there were no blacks and whites at that time. At least, not in the sense, we use those terms. Simply put, the strong were preying on the weak. I support any attempt at self-examiniation.

FW Ken -
“All have sinned…”

Yes, we find that in Paul’s letter to the Romans. Seems that little changes over time except the players on the stage.

C. S. Lewis wrote a short essay on confessing ancestors’ sins. He didn’t think too much of the insidious pride in such humility. (Essay may be in “God in the Dock”, but my copy is still packed after the move.)

Peyton

Was this not the slave trade Darwinism at work? BTW you here very little of the Role Of Arab Muslims in this slave trade, both when in it full mode and into modern age, including current practice.

Only white liberals entertain the fallacy that a few white men could land on the African shore and carry off by force hundreds of slaves without the complicity of the African rulers. Even though some of my white ancestors kicked butt, they weren’t that tough.

Well, they could have included by implication the Muslim slave traders as well as the Caucasian ones so enamoured of the such apologies. In fact, they could include the current Muslim slave traders………

So then what’s this “white slave trade” all about? Who apologizes for that?

TEC is a slave to fashion only, for which an apology is owed.

I teach History and this topic comes up at least twice a year.

That aspect of the slave trade ended over 100 years ago. If we live in the past, we will never see the present or future. That would be a terrible waste.

BUT… Since everybody want to join this “pity me for what was done to my GGGGGGGGG grandfather” stuff…

I want a apology from the Queen for what Liz1 did to my Irish ancestors. I want the head of the German government to apologize for some remote ruler from the 18th century’s policies that forced my German ancestors to come to America.

I want an apology from the Pope for being a tool of the Spanish throne and not letting Henry VIII have his divorce… all the claptrap that is going on in the Episcopal church is all his fault.

I want an apology from the King of Spain for his soldiers and sailors introducing the potato to Europe. If it hadn’t been for them, there would not have been a famine in the 1840’s that forced my simple Irish ancestors to flee their country

Mostly I was an apology from from everyone who teased me as a child… It has taken years of therapy and tons of really good drugs for me to get past all of this…

ps…

I want to apologize for being born in to a middle class Irish/German American family who had such values as hard work, honor, and pride. If I had known how much of an Enemy of the State this would make me I would have chose to be born poor, in some shanty up the hollar.

I want to apologize if anyone takes offense at my statements.. I am sorry that it is your problem.

I love apologetics and find it interesting how an apology today means almost the complete opposite of what it meant a few hundred years ago.

My apologies for the etymological sidenote.

I’m leaving some grapes out in the open so that they will start to turn sour. I intend to mail them to Gargamel’s descendants.

Barney, I’m still waiting for an apology for the revocation of the Edict of Nantes.

None of my ancestors had anything to do with Nantes, but I apologize for their non-involvement. I am fairly certain that they would have fully supported the liberal governments effort to open a meaningful dialog amongst the parties to bring about a fully formed and harmonious outcome to further guide the diverse understandings of the gastronomic by-product of male bovines.

Actually, it is Scriptural to repent, renounce and abandon the sins of one’s forefathers. Bloodline curses caused by our fathers’ sin or curses against them, even though not known, if unrenounced and unrepented, can cause spiritual/emotional illness to be passed down from generation to generation because of sins of the fathers.

The early church had a very careful preparation for baptism and confirmation that involved this spiritual exercise. There are vestiges of this in the Orthodox baptisms, confirmations and in the exorcism and deliverance prayers of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil, (http://www.trueorthodoxy.info/pdf/Exorcisms.pdf) which are centered on GOD and full of praise of the LORD Jesus Christ that evil spirits cannot abide so much that it drives them away.

Regarding collective repentance…we certainly are long overdue for it, as a church and as a nation. Leviticus 26 has been heavy on my mind lately and
I’ve returned to this chapter over and over to pray for repentance, for my own sins when I was blind and pro-choice, and for our nation for the shedding of innocent blood (51 MILLION infants), sexual immorality, divorce, that are confusing, devaluing and defiling our humanity, our roles as male, female, father and mother, for the abandonment of children all of which is the breaking of the 5th, 6th and 7th commandment.

We have abandoned the covenant and law of the LORD in every way and we are now reaping the seven-fold consequences promised in Leviticus 26: economic disaster, the rise of the Assyrian/Babylonian against us (that God always used to punish HIS people) and Leviticus 26:17 “…those that hate you shall rule over you.” Repentance is our only hope.

Back to the topic of repenting for the sins of our forefathers, see Leviticus 26:40, “If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they tresspassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary to me…”

GOD does call us to collective confession as a family, church and/or nation. See Lev 26:40, Num 5:7, Neh 1:6, Neh 9:2-3 and other passages.

Another verse that has been on my mind is II Chronicles 7:14.
“If MY people who are called by MY Name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and forgive their sins and heal their land.

There is always value in humility, as a nation, as a church and as individuals. Humility is a sign of the work and presence of God in us, and it is pride (also mocking, hate, dissension, hard-heartedness and harm) that reveals the character of the enemy of God.

Owning our sins and acknowledging that we and our ancestors are sinners, creatures, frail, imperfect…that we are not GOD is a mark of restoration to our proper humble station. (Psalm 100:3). This is TRUTH, an unchanging FACT, but it is a hard truth for human beings bound in iniquity (fallen state, flesh, selfishness) to grasp and hold onto and we have to return to it over and over.

Psychology research has shown that confession and disclosure of trauma, pain, secrets, does have a healing, positive physical and emotional effect. (see the work of Pennebaker, and others)

It takes humility to repent and confess. Knowing our wretchedness and need, acknowledging our sin to function are gifts of God. Willingness to enact James 5:16 and Galatians 6:1-2 are signs of an honest, healthy, holy person, church and possibly a model for a healthy nation.

Our shame and guilt have been paid for by our LORD Jesus Christ. He has shown us the way out of the burden of our sins. I John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So, I bless this effort by Africa. They have discerned sins of the fathers and seen how they affect their nation today.

I wish the Anglicans and Catholics would also comprehend the patterns that their bloodshed, compromises with secular powers, politics, power-mongering, sins of pride, lust, etc. have continued to the present. Both the Anglican Curmudgeon and Lent and Beyond had a series on the history of the Anglicans that revealed the present characteristics of such shell-game shenanigans that went on at the Jamaica meeting which were present at the very first Lambeth Conference. Then there is the condoning of sin by the Western Provinces that will be carried globally in the Name of Jesus and of the whole AC in the guise of the Continuing Indaba Project, a propaganda tool for promoting homosex and abortion.

The entire Church of Jesus Christ, global and universal has bloody dirty hands. A simple scanning of the history of the church makes that fact plain. A good honest enactment of the 12 steps, culminating in a collective renouncement and repentance of sins, those in the present and those of the fathers, would do the Bride much good.

Apologies for being, as usual, lengthy and contrary (but sincere).

;8->

I could probably speak fluent French today if it weren’t for that pesky Cardinal Richelieu. Somebody owes me big-time.

(snort!)

Whitestone.

I agree with your statement. So many Christian fail to fully appreciate the radical nature of our faith.

Whitestone, the sense of the passages you listed seems to be in the context of reminding the Israelites of their long history of disobedience, in spite of possessing God’s word and covenant promises for many generations. It doesn’t assert that the guilt of ancestors is actually imputed to descendants. The passage that addresses that issue (which I alluded to earlier Jer 31:29-30) asserts emphatically that this is not the case.

The context of your passages also concerns the relationship between Israel and God, not between fellow Israelites. I’m unaware of any civil laws from the Pentateuch that state that, say, a son could be punished for his father’s crimes. This is an area of inter-personal ethics, not divine-human ethics.

The Civil Rights congress would thus have scriptural warrant to exhort the rulers’ families to reflect on the sins of their ancestors and not excuse them just because they are related, and to use this as a motivation to be more proactive in confronting sins in their own lives, but it seems unwarranted and ureasonable that they should “apologise on behalf of their forefathers”.

I want women to apologize for Eve eating that apple, dangit!

But if somebody above said anything rude or hirtful, I’m sorry.

Smurfbreath–
Passages quoted from the OT don’t “assert that the guilt of ancestors is actually imputed to descendants.”

How about the NT? http://bible.cc/matthew/27-25.htm
indicates that the Jews had a concept of collective, inheritable guilt around 33 AD

Whitestone -

I am with Smurf Breath. Most of what you cite for Scripture references does involve the relationship between God and his Chosen People - Israel.

However, the rest of what you said about humility and facing the facts of our ancestor’s sinfulness, cupitity, etc. do make a lot of sense.

There is a sense among Americans (by which I mean citizens of the US) that we are the Chosen Ones of God. This is not true. That title belongs to the Israelites. Now, I recognize that Paul has referred to the Christian Church as the “New Israel,” but that is a metaphor and I am not sure how far it goes.

But a good dose of humility and a respect for our true place in our relationship between God and us is not a bad thing to advocate.

MyLifeIsAverage, many think Acts 2:39 was spoken in response to that:

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

This would show the Jewish notion at the time was mistaken: Peter is telling them it is not so.

I respectfully, gulp, disagree with most esteemed and erudite brethren, Smurf Breath and Allen Lewis.

A. Both the old Israel and the new Israel are subject to the spiritual laws, precepts and principles that God has set up to govern the universe and that the whole counsel of Scripture teaches.
B. Both old and new Israel (grafted in) were commanded to separate themselves/ourselves from the sins of our fathers, the natural unregenerate self, the old man of the flesh, etc. upon conversion, and to continue to be watchful to keep him from resurrecting throughout our lives on the earth (sanctification/crucifixion of the flesh). (Psalm 45 ‘forget your father’s house’)
C. This is what the Fathers taught.
D. Humble ongoing repentance is the first line of spiritual warfare/defense.

It is an enlightening exercise to do both a Genogram, a spiritual/psychological family tree, that lists marriages, divorce, early death, addictions, mental illness, medical histories and a Genealogical Family Tree listing ancestors, surnames, countries of origin, and to map their migration from other countries and around the US. I did both because of a family member’s illness.

In the Genogram, I could see that every other generation of our family has had illness and early deaths since taking land from the Cherokees after the Revolutionary war. Recently, I read that the area that was once inhabited by the Cherokees had a many times higher rate of stroke than anywhere else in the US.

Curses work both ways, on the person cursed and on the one doing the cursing - both are harmed and bound by the curse. The only thing that breaks curses is forgiveness and blessing. That is why Jesus taught us to pray for, bless, forgive, love, do good to our enemies…for our own spiritual, emotional and physical health and for theirs.

‘We remain bound to the people we have not forgiven and we become their mirror image, become like them,’ said Bishop Mark Lawrence in an interview outside the last TEC General Convention.

That is why patterns of behavior continue through generations and centuries…unrepented and unforgiven sin.

I also agree with the Africans’ efforts to be free of the past.

May God may bless them for this honest, courageous and difficult work and set them free from the bondage of sin, curses, unforgiveness and demonic powers and oppression that may have kept Africa under its power. Amen.

(see Ephesians 6:12)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091115/ap_on_re_us/child_migrants_apology

“Recently, I read that the area that was once inhabited by the Cherokees had a many times higher rate of stroke than anywhere else in the US. ”

It’s Southern Cooking that does it, not an ancestral curse.