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Tuesday, November 3rd, 2009 | Uncategorized

Pope Benedict XVI is still on a roll and still effortlessly causing Episcopalians to make absolute jackasses of themselves.  Arizona Episcopal Bishop Kirk Smith weighs in on the Vatican’s Anglican initiative:

This current invitation is a bit different in that those going to Rome have been promised that they can maintain their Anglican ways (Prayerbook, etc) and even have oversight by former Anglican bishops. Still those priests and bishops will be ruled by the Vatican.

For them, that’s a feature, not a bug.  What’s your point?

The reason dissenting Episcopalians left our church is that they didn’t like control.

Wrong.  They left because they’re still Christians and the current leadership of the Episcopal Organization isn’t.

I doubt many of them would be anxious to trade in their current relative independence for orders from the Chair of St Peter.

Hang on a second.  Didn’t you just now say that conservatives left because they didn’t like control?  Now you say they’ll be trading in their “relative independence” to take “orders from the Chair of St. Peter.”  Which is it, Smitty?

It might be a different story in England where there is a much more pronounced Anglo-Catholic wing of the Church of England, yet even so, there is wide disagreement among Anglo-Catholics over such issues as the ordination of women, use of the Roman missal instead of the Prayerbook, and the role of gay and lesbian people in the church. As has been pointed out, the Roman Church’s position on sexuality is hardly consistent. It does not permit married clergy (except for Anglican converts?) and it does not permit gay clergy (even though until recently pedophilia was secretly tolerated?) There seems to be something missing here.

ANNNNNNNNNND here we go.  Dumbass, er, Bishop?  Was the Roman Catholic Church’s response to its sex scandal woefully inadequate?  Every single Roman Catholic in the United States will angrily tell you that it was WAY worse than that.

So to say that the Roman Catholic Church tolerated pedophilia is a stretch.  Actually, it’s a libel since like any Christian church, Rome doesn’t tolerate any sin, it just sometimes doesn’t react as well as it should to instances of sin occurring among its members.

Is annulment a scandal now and then?  Probably.  But it kicks the crap out of being as breezy about marriage as Episcopalians are.  After all, the Catholic Church didn’t make a bishop out of Barry Beisner, a man who’s been divorced twice and married three times.

What with you guys giving a pointy hat to a man who has sex with a man as well as to old Third Time’s the Charm aforesaid, Episcopalians are the last people in the world who should lecture any other Christians about sex or sin or anything else.

But as far as libel is concerned, Smith’s just getting warmed up.

What I think is missing is any clear Gospel proclamation on the part of the Pope. Of course he wants to increase the rapidly dwindling ranks of his own church, what leader would not want to do that?

You know how I like beating jokes to death so here goes.  The “rapidly dwindling ranks” of the Pope’s own church currently number a billion and change.  The Episcopalians claim about 2 million.  Maybe.  Fact is, Smitty, that the RCC can reach into its sofa cushions and find more peeps than attend Episcopal churches.

But is the building up of a church on the basis of hatred consistent with Jesus’ message? Is the idea “If you hate gay people and women, then come join us” one Benedict really wants to support?

No, since he never said it and doesn’t think it.  How the hell do you know what the Pope’s motivations are, tough stuff?  Those false witness classes sound like they’ve really paying off for you.  Bishop, Richard Dawkins thinks that one was over-the-line.

Or is this gesture likely to become, as I suspect, a tremendous embarrassment to present and future generations of Roman Catholics?

Dude, just work in the one about the Pope being the false prophet of Revelation and call it a day.

Jesus Christ’s message about love and acceptance of all seems to have been somehow overlooked by the Holy Father.

Your pseudo-spiritual debating society, on the other hand, has pretty much deep-sixed the Cross and eliminated the whole idea of sin.  So once again, glass houses and all that.

Face it, Smitty, you and the Pope have two different religions.  And on the basis of this arrogant, stupid, mean-spirited, libelous screed, I want nothing whatsoever to do with yours.  I want no part of any religion where you can lie and defame this effortlessly.

70 Comments to [TITLE CHANGED]

Sinner
November 3, 2009

You’ve pretty much deep-sixed the Cross and eliminated the whole idea of sin

Note that the EU court of “Justice” (Islamic Justice, I guess) has just banned the Cross in Italy and presumably in the rest of the EU!!

Bill (not IB)
November 3, 2009

The notion that Pope Benedict is motivated by misogyny, homophobia and racism seems to be the “standard talking points” of the liberals/revisionists. And all I can say is – it’s truly sad that all they have left in their “arsenal” is slander and insult. They make generic accusations without any basis in reality; they take their own hate-filled misperceptions as fact; and they believe that others habitually sink to their own gutter-hugging practices of trash-talk and crap-slinging.

Katherine
November 3, 2009

This guy should be ashamed to show his face in public. He’s ill-informed and foolish.

Paula Loughlin
November 3, 2009

I am gobsmacked over the vitrol coming from so called Bishops. This is not how members of a Christian body behave. If ever evidence was needed as to just where TEO has put its treasure, these words are it.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
November 3, 2009

Is this a form letter (courtesy of the Presiding B___)? His…um…uhh…arguements sound awfully familiar. “The pope’s dwindling ranks” and “if you hate gays and women” seem to be showing up from a number of these administrators.

gppp
November 3, 2009

Now we know what Kirk thinks. What does his partner in sermonizing have to say about this?

I might be getting ahead of things, but it seems we might now know who the dummy of the pair really is.

Duane
November 3, 2009

My parish priest, who is as conservative as can be, was discussing homosexuality and that being oriented that way isn’t a sin, but having homosexual relations is a sin. Also a big sin, is to be hateful towards people with a homosexual orientation. Our role as Christians and Catholics is to pray for those with that orientation, try to show them the correct path which is celibacy, and to be kind to them.

Mrs. Lawrence
November 3, 2009

” I want no part of any religion where you can lie and defame this effortlessly.”

A most profound statement.

dwstroudmd
November 3, 2009

The demonstration of stupidity and cupidity is required for bishops, apparently; at least, in ECUSA/TEC. That way the members of the organization can feel they haven’t left their minds at the door. That or seminary education as good for the bishop as the PB. Take your choice.

Daniel Muller
November 3, 2009

The clarity is blinding.

Duane
November 3, 2009

dwstroudmd,

Before I swam the Tiber I was actively considering going to seminary to pursue being an Episcopalian priest. That all changed when I attended a week long seminar on the silly J2A nonsense at General Theological Seminary in NYC. The institutional rot I experienced there pushed me that last little bit into the water to swim the Tiber.

FW Ken
November 3, 2009

it does not permit gay clergy (even though until recently pedophilia was secretly tolerated?)

I’m reading that as stating a relationship between gay clergy and pedophilia, which is homosexualist heresy! Surely the bishop’s acid pen has slipped.

Obligatory, repetitive note: we all know by know the Catholic problem isn’t pedophilia but predatory behavior of homosexually inclined men toward sexually mature adolescent young men. There! You knew I’d have to say it.

Second obligatory, repetitive note: I’m sure some Anglicans now ordained to the Catholic priesthood have received shabby treatment, but in the Fort Worth/Dallas area that’s hard to substantiate. Former Anglicans pastor some of the largest, most stable parishes, largely because they built them and one priest is currently chancellor of the diocese. Moreover, the men who came over (with their wives, btw, lest we forget) weren’t reacting to the ordination of women; those folks came over immediately after WO began and before the Pastoral Provision. It’s been a steady trickle which continues today.

I think we all agree the pope’s new arrangement is not likely to make substantial inroads into the 77 million Anglicans out there. Most of them are evangelical protestants/charismatics, or simply numbers on a roster (as in the Church of England, with an ASA of about 5%). TAC will probably net the largest number of souls, but they aren’t in communion with Bishop Kirk, so why does he care?

The intensity of objection to the pope’s pastoral initiative, on display in this screed and at a variety of TEC venues, liberal and conservative, is of interest for the contrast to the actual numbers of TEC members likely to convert.

Libcat objections are also duly noted, but they object to whatever the pope does, so who cares.

Daniel Muller
November 3, 2009

Closer to our own time, a group of married Episcopal clergy who were admitted into the Roman Church because of their refusal to accept the ordination of women in the 1970s found that they were regarded with suspicion by their new congregants and most experienced unhappy and frustrating pastorates.

Meow, meow. I believe this to be completely untrue.

Christopher Johnson
November 3, 2009

Considering the rest of his statement, I seriously doubt Smith’s claim.

Daniel Muller
November 3, 2009

in the [--] Dallas area

Fixed. Otherwise a good expansion of my crossposted comment.

;-)

Peter C.
November 3, 2009

If you ever wonder what an Episcopal seminary education offers compared to a seminary education of another tradition, you can always go to the Boston Theological Institute website. Once there, go to the catalog and compare the courses offered by EDS to those of schools like Boston College, Boston University, and my alma mater, Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology. To quote from the description from EDS PT/CS 2019, “The premise of the course involves the recognition that the word urban has become a code for race and as such the course will examine racism as a personal and institutional impediment to positively engaging all social issues.” To quote Bill the Cat, “Oop, ack.”

Mark
November 3, 2009

I see from his bio on the diocese website that the Catholic Church graciously loaned him the use of one of their church buildings for his consecration. Quite a sense of gratitude he’s got.

JM
November 4, 2009

Well said, Mr. Johnson. Mr. Smith needs someone to say the same thing to him personally. Not that I expect it would help.

Truth Unites... and Divides
November 4, 2009

“And on the basis of this arrogant, stupid, mean-spirited, libelous screed, I want nothing whatsoever to do with yours. I want no part of any religion where you can lie and defame this effortlessly.”

Aw c’mon. Don’t run away from your heritage. Return to TEc. And enjoy all the fun of being an Institutionalist-Enabler of TEc’s soul-destroying heresy and apostasy.

Allen Lewis
November 4, 2009

Are we going to here the same stuff from every active Diocesan in TEC (although probably the CP bishops will refrain from participating)? Why doesn’t Episcopal Life just do an op-ed which says the same thing and be done with it, or is the purpose to show how deeply anti-Roman Catholic the Episcopal Church is?

Sounds like all this guy retains from his church history classes is an anti-Roman Catholic bias.

What a complete jackass this bishop is!!

LaVallette
November 4, 2009

“In my entire five years as bishop, I know of only two people who have left the Episcopal Church to become Roman Catholics! The migration is clearly in our direction.”

“It would seem that for the foreseeable future there will continue to be far more pilgrims debarking at Canterbury than at Rome.”

Is this guy unhinged or what? Or is he ‘spinning” to encourage his congregation to stay with “the winner”? He puts Baghdad Bob to shame!

FrMichael
November 4, 2009

Cross-posted to the bishop’s comment section:

“Rapidly diminishing?”

Are you nuts? Get off your high horse and visit some of the booming AZ Catholic parishes. I would think that a few of the RC mega-parishes would have more ASA and members than your entire diocese.

“The reason dissenting Episcopalians left our church is that they didn’t like control.”

Negative. Try reading dissenting Episcopalians own literature instead of imposing your own uneducated opinion on the reasserter movement. This is a theological dispute (better said, multiple theological disputes) that has escalated into schism.

Daniel
November 4, 2009

Here is Dallas, I had the privilege of being taught by a priest whose name is Fr. Steenson. Father Steenson was the former anglican bishop for RioGrande in Arizona! I got to meet his wife and son both of whom were excellent people. Perhaps Smitty is a little sore that one of his colleagues swam the Tiber!

Dale Price
November 4, 2009

I think we’ve just seen the script for the first Episcopal Chick Tract.

That is, if Jack ever lost his mind and decided the Piskies were A-OK.

Still, I smell photoshop.

Duane
November 4, 2009

The ASA for the whole Atlanta episcopal diocese is 17-18k for 2008. My Catholic parish in the Atlanta suburbs averages over 2000 for ASA just by itself, and there are several parishes larger than ours in the diocese. Yep, we’re really dying on the vine over here in the RCC.

Therese Z
November 4, 2009

Chris, you’re becoming a fine Catholic apologist, probably in spite of yourself!

Fuinseoig
November 4, 2009

“Lastly, such an invitation is simply not working. In every congregation I visit, the number of people I receive from the Roman Church is almost as great as those new Episcopalians I confirm. During my visitation last week I received six people. That in just one week! In my entire five years as bishop, I know of only two people who have left the Episcopal Church to become Roman Catholics! The migration is clearly in our direction.

So although all Christian churches need to worry about members leaving, this is one exit strategy we don’t need to worry about. It would seem that for the foreseeable future there will continue to be far more pilgrims debarking at Canterbury than at Rome.”

So it’s very, very bad to be rustling someone else’s sheep, and anyways, we rustle waaay more sheep than they’re likely to get!

:-) Thanks for the clarification, Bishop.

Fuinseoig
November 4, 2009

“The reason dissenting Episcopalians left our church is that they didn’t like control.”

Um – but I thought TEC’s unique polity meant that there wasn’t a top-down, hierarchical level of imposed control, but rather that all members had an equal say and nobody was the boss of anyone else?

Paula Loughlin
November 4, 2009

I have very mixed feeling about revealing this, but you have all become such dear friends I know I must. “OWWWCH, HEY THAT HURTS!!!! TAKE IT EASY WITH THAT DIAL. THIS AIN’T GITMO, YOU KNOW.” Phew, that’s better. You’d think those albino monks never heard of moderation. Anyway to continue. I think they left to get some java, so I have a few minutes.

As you know us Catholics are implanted with a mind control chip that can be remotely activated by the Vatican Inquistion. “I DIDN’T SAY ANYTHING, I SWEAR, WE WERE JUST LAUGHING ABOUT THE DAVINCI CODE AND SAYING WHAT A PACK OF LIES THE WHOLE THING IS. GO DRINK YOUR COFFEE AND HAVE A LITTLE FAITH. I’M ONE OF YOU GUYS, REMEMBER? O.k. This time I think we won’t be interrupted. Anyho this chip thingy is implanted and so on and so on. It’s usually not too much of a bother except if you try to use a curling iron too close to it. Then can you say brain zigger?

Well yesterday my chip was activated and I received a coded message. So I proceeded to my jar of ovaltine, fished out my decoder ring and went to work. “NO I DON’T WANT ANY PIE, I’M THROWING DARTS AT THIS PICTURE OF LUTHER.” It did not take me long to decode the message. “HEY GUYS, I WAS JUST THINKING MAYBE NEXT MESSAGE THE CODE SHOULD BE A BIT HARDER THEN PIG LATIN.” That must be some kind of inside joke.

So I decode the message and am just shocked to find I have been instructed to poach as many Episcopalians from the bosom of their loving Bishops and lure them in with false promises of bigotry, misogyny and a Svengali like magesterium.

Well I just ain’t gonna do it. “DAG NABIT. WILL YOU STOP WITH THE CURRENT? YOU’LL DAMAGE THE CHIP.” You guys are like family and if that old sly bandit of souls wants to lure you away from your true church muddah and faddah, well I ain’t gonna help him. “I NEVER SAID BENEDICT!!! READ WHAT I WROTE. I COULD BE TALKING ABOUT FATHER JOE FISH FROM PEORIA. YOU KNOW THE JESUIT GUY? SO PUT THOSE THUMBSCREWS BACK IN YOUR POCKET!!!”

I may be risking my good standing in the Church, but sometimes you have to consider the human factor. So please be warned and don’t trust any of them other Catholics. The vacant stare, the mumbling of the Rosary and the 14 snivling barefoot dirty children dragging behind them will give them away. You have been warned.

Michael
November 4, 2009

Enterprise to Kirk – Time to beam back up.

tjmcmahon
November 4, 2009

Do the math.
TEC is 2/10 of 1% the size of the Roman Catholic Church.

The membership of the Roman Church, last I checked, was larger than the population of India and until recently, if not still, China. TEC is roughly equal to the population of, say the Indianapolis urban area (OK, a guess there, but certainly smaller than the population within the city limits of Chicago).

The diocese of Arizona is probably smaller than some Roman parishes.

The Roman Catholic Church could lose a number of people equal to the size of TEC’s claimed membership, every year for 500 years, and still be 50-100 times the size TEC is now.

Lone Star Buddha
November 4, 2009

I just couldn’t take it.

So I deposited a bit of mean-spirited cyber-lashing of Bishop Smith on his Arizona Diocese blog of “e-pistles”.

It hasn’t been approved for publication in the comments section there, but, who knows, more miraculous things have occurred.

Here it is in unabridged form (I sent Bishop Smith a briefer, marginally gentler abridged version):

Your most worthy Excellency, I have a simple question for you.

Is adolescent and transparent libel of a spiritual leader (you don’t have to buy into the notion the Pope is the only leader, if that concept’s just too upsetting) of the catholic and universal church temporal in such ugly and extreme terms something you really want to “support” (i.e., spew) ?

Of course, almost everybody finds it difficult to live up to, or fully buy into, the spiritual guidance and directives of the RCC.

But one of the few things that even offends a lot of us non-RC’s more than an rigid magisterium is venomous and libelous hypocrisy on proud display by a condescending prelate of a competing (how’s that working for you?) denomination.

Sometime, maybe late at night when you can take a rest from your daily round of spiritual materialism and serial exercises in unwarranted self-esteem building, you may want to reflect on what you’ve done and what really motivated you to do it (“intentionality” run off the rails ?).

By the way, feel free not to post this comment in the unlikely event you find any element of it to be embarrassing .

This post may be (well, actually it quite clearly has been) written in unduly judgemental anger and disgust, but, nonetheless, your “prayerful” consideration of the potential merit of any of its content might very well be helpful to you as part of the “listening process” segment of your continuing and humble “faith journey”.

ubuntu…keep on eschewing that vestigial personal salvation thing…ubuntu

phil swain
November 4, 2009

I don’t think Bishop Smith could make such an ignorant statement were his heart not cluttered with anti-Catholic bigotry. Smith’s bigotry surfaced when he referred to the Oxford educated “Henry Newman” as being made to serve in a “poor and obscure” catholic parish in Birmingham as if it were beneath the dignity of a Oxford trained anglican to serve those dirty little catholics and the catholic hierarchy was too stupid to recognize this Oxford man’s genius. I suppose Smith’s point is that if any episcopal clergy were thinking of poping, they should understand that the ignorant catholics will not be able to appreciate their finely-tuned minds. Smith’s prejudice is so episcopalian.

Dave Pawlak
November 4, 2009

Paula:

You’re lucky. Whenever I stray, my Vatican-controlled chip starts playing David Haas/Marty Haugen tunes…you don’t know torture until you experience a continuous loop of “Voices that Challenge”…

Patrick
November 4, 2009

My friend Kurt is an ex-Lutheran who will point out if I ask that he has no dog in this fight. But I respect his thinking, and one of the things he does is use Pope Benedict as an “early warning system.” In his words, “I like people who like Ratzinger. I don’t like people who don’t. Simple as that.”

A mighty fine rule of thumb, I’m thinking.

Duane
November 4, 2009

David,

that IS torture!!!! Someone created a facebook group against Marty Haugen songs, I had to laugh!

James G
November 4, 2009

“The diocese of Arizona is probably smaller than some Roman parishes”

I did the math a few years back after being amazed by just how tiny and sparsely populated Episcopal churches were.

The TEo Diocese of Arizona’s web page shows 27 parishes on the big map plus an additional 25, 8 and 2 for the metro areas of Phoenix, Tucson and Flagstaff for a grand total of 62 churches (side note – the single TEo church in Yuma, which is way larger than Flagstaff, is part of the diocese of San Diego having left that of Arizona a couple of decades back because AZ was too liberal and has since split into an Anglican church and the remaining TEo church). To be generous let’s give them an ASA of 100 per church; that would give them a grand total of 6200 ASA for the whole diocese.

My Catholic parish church seats 1200 and in the winter has two masses filled beyond capacity and two additional ones that are at least half full. This would give us about 3600 people attending mass at my church during a typical winter weekend. There are an additional two Catholic parishes of equal size in my city. So it really isn’t an exaggeration to say that there are probably Catholic parishes in Arizona that are larger than the entire TEo diocese of Arizona.

James G

Truth Unites... and Divides
November 4, 2009

Whore of Phoenix

That’s so irenic and such rhetoric helps to engender continued dialogue in the Listening Process with the liberals in TEc.

I shall strive to be as irenic as our host.

Lone Star Buddha
November 4, 2009

Just one more niggling thing to mention while I’m still on such a decidedly unspiritual, bit occasionally clarifying, bad trip about this nutty bishop.

Like virtually every TEC Bishop, Most Right Reverend Smith was awarded an Honorary Doctorate of Divinity after his ordination as a Bishop.

But, just like HofD fave Bonnie Anderson (and Jefferts Schori when she ran for PB), Smith puts the D.D. after his name without the honoris causa clarification that makes clear that he did not receive in recognition of any theological scholarship and that its award is virtually automatic.

Other TEC Bishops (most, I think, and, in fact, all the Bishops that ran against Jefferts Schori for the PB slot in their campaign platforms) always and appropriately clarify that the doctorate designation is honorific.

Just one more small thing, of course, but quite telling about the astounding vanity of some people of modest capability (e.g., Schori, Anderson, Smith) that seem to be indifferent to their inability to properly lead a church with such a proud heritage in such a time of crisis.

Maybe Paula could let them borrow some of her chips every so often.

Dr. (oops, only a juris doctor) L S Buddha, D.D. (Universal Life Church since 1970))

Mark
November 4, 2009

James G: the diocese’s ASA is about 9000 according to
http://12.0.101.92/reports/PR_ChartsDemo/exports/ParishRPT_1142009123927PM.pdf

Both ASA and membership have been trending down since about 2003, even though Arizona is the fastest growing state in the country. Almost makes one wonder if anything special happened in 2003.

FW Ken
November 4, 2009

I recently said everything I have to say about Catholic numbers, so I’ll skip the generalities. It’s really not fair to compare Catholic numbers to Episcopalian, but since Bishop Fantasy Island brings it up, here are some hard numbers:

Catholic Diocese of Phoenix -

http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/diocese/dphoe.html

Doubled in numbers since 1980, although it decreased from 17% to 14% of the population.

Catholic Diocese of Tucson

http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/diocese/dtucs.html

198K in 1980 to 350K in 2004. About the same percentage of the population.

I think Diocese of Las Cruces, NM includes part of northeast Arizona, but the numbers are probably small.

Episcopal Diocese of Arizona:

http://12.0.101.92/reports/PR_ChartsDemo/exports/ParishRPT_1142009123623PM.pdf

Membership in 2008 maybe 25,000; ASA maybe 9000? I can’t find the tables for dioceses, but the chart shows the steady decline.

The bishop lied.

CAVEAT: The Catholic Church in Arizona benefits numerically from the hispanic influx, I’m sure.

Fuinseoig
November 4, 2009

Paula, Paula, Paula. I am so disappointed by your lack of fervour for the salvation of souls and the your lukewarmness regarding the advance of the One True Church and your regrettable want of zeal for the ongoing mission to bring the entire globe under the dominion of the Pope so that all humanity may be subjugated under his reign and toil to support the clerics in luxury while we laity cower in fear of hideous torture in life and eternal damnation after it.

Well, I suppose this was only to be expected when the Jesuits went deep-cover as liberals and progressives in their ploy to lull suspicion and divert attention as they progressed the plan of conquest, and the name of the Inquisition was changed to the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith and the Dominicans were sidelined. Sure, the Opus Dei albino assassin monks have the enthusiasm, but you can’t replace experience. Bring back the Dominicans, I say!

Truth Unites... and Divides
November 4, 2009

Whore of Phoenix?

How about the Presiding Whore of 815? What does she have to say about Pope Benedict XVI’s invitation to Episcopalians and Anglicans?

Christopher Johnson
November 4, 2009

Mrs. Schori hasn’t officially responded yet.

Smurf Breath
November 4, 2009

What I think is missing is any clear Gospel proclamation on the part of the Pope.

I wonder what he thinks a Gospel proclamation consists of. “Go forth into the world, telling people they are good to go, except if they aren’t acting on every sexual impulse that comes into their heads, then they are repressing who they truly are, etc. etc.”

The easy dishonesty with which they misrepresent themselves is disheartening sometimes. It’s like hearing a Mormon protest, ‘Hey! I believe in Jesus, just like you! I’m a Christian!’

Fuinseoig
November 4, 2009

Off-topic, but I had to pass this on when I saw it over at T19:

“The Diocese of Northern Michigan has decided that it will choose from multiple nominees when it next elects a bishop.”

Yeah, that would probably be a good idea, right enough ;-) Anyone want to bet if Kevin takes a second run at it?

Edgar
November 4, 2009

I don’t know, but I do have to wonder about an esteemed member of the TEC clergy (and a guy shamelessly and somewhat ineptly angling for more House of Bishops power by acting as the PB’s rotweiler), mature in his faith and mature in his years (early 40′s) when he dumped his wife for a younger woman, lecturing the Pope about sexual ethics and fidelity to God’s word.

I guess he’s still in that charming you’ve-got-to-lose-your-faith-to gain-your-faith phase of theological revelation.

This whole thing has just got to be something out of The Onion or the Borowitz Report…right?

Dave
November 4, 2009

“So it’s very, very bad to be rustling someone else’s sheep, and anyways, we rustle waaay more sheep than they’re likely to get!”

I’ve seen variants on the above phrase ever since Bennie made his offer… Up to now, I’ve resisted the obvious comment… but I JUST CAN’T TAKE IT ANY MORE… so HERE GOES:

Be thankful that “rustling” is ALL the ‘Piskies are doing with the sheep!

There! I’ve got it out of my system… now for some serious repentance and self flagellation… I’m so (dare I say it?) Baaaad!

Dave Pawlak
November 4, 2009

Dave:

If you want real penance, I’ve got some old Marty Haugen tapes…and my wife has some Barry Manilow CDs…

Barney
November 4, 2009

After a serious examination of the material provided in this excellent post… I must remind you that whores are paid for a service… sluts give it away… I am too much of a gentleman to state my opinion of the comments made by this supposed man of God… but it is somewhere lower than a slut…

ps. I’ll take you Haugen and spot you two Living Strings and a Montavanti

Daniel Muller
November 4, 2009

I’ll take you Haugen and spot you two Living Strings and a Montovani

Don’t make me come down there!

The Pilgrim
November 4, 2009

…”spot you two Living Strings and a Montavanti”

Nothing Mantovani did can hold a candle to the torture inflicted on the Brits by Norrie Paramor.

Peter C.
November 4, 2009

If Chris ever does come down this way to try to put the beatdown on me, I’m going to ward him off with some Betty Pulkingham praise songs.

Truth Unites... and Divides
November 4, 2009

Barney: “I must remind you that whores are paid for a service…

How much is the Presiding _____ of 815 paid annually? Was this disclosed at GenCon 2009?

Sibyl
November 4, 2009

How ’bout some old Liberace videos?

FW Ken
November 4, 2009

Yeah, well what about the St. Louis Jesuits! HA!

http://www.ocp.org/products/10648

Actually, I a cassette of this album.

Joshua
November 4, 2009

Chris: I believe you misinterpreted the following: The reason dissenting Episcopalians left our church is that they didn’t like control. I doubt many of them would be anxious to trade in their current relative independence for orders from the Chair of St Peter.

He is trying to say that the Episcopalians who left ECUSA didn’t like being controlled, and now they are in independent churches where they are not under other people’s control, so they are unlikely to join the Catholic Church where they would be controlled by the Pope.

That statement may not reflect reality, but it’s not self-contradictory either.

Fr. J.
November 4, 2009

Over at T19 this past weekend, someone named “Sarah” was at wit’s end trying to convince that readership that there was no such thing as anti-Catholicism.

I think this letter from a TEC bishop is a great example of the subtle and often not so subtle anti-Catholic ethos that has pervaded many protestant Churches. It is not that this bishop hates the pope or personally hates any single Catholic, but he does exhibit in his tone a visceral contempt for Catholicism.

As Christians we are charged to willingly suffer for the sake of the kingdom of God, but more importantly we are charged to watch with an expectant faith for all evidence of the good fruit which will inevitably follow therefrom. Every cross born for Christ will issue forth in some resurrection.

One evidence of the resurrection from the horrible cross of modernity which I see quite plainly is that the visceral contempt Christians have had historically for each other is now dissipating. I don’t see enormous throngs coming to Rome because of the pope’s offer–at least not right away. I do see that so many Protestants are looking across the Tiber and seeing perhaps for the first time in centuries an ally, a fellow pilgrim, a fellow soldier, and perhaps even an Apostle to learn from even while standing on the other shore.

And, I find this evidence everywhere. From the guy who 25 years after college was done looks me up on Facebook to apologize for his anti-Catholicism of those almost forgotten years, to the Evangelical minister who sneeks into my old parish during the week to pray there with Christ in the Tabernacle, to the kid studying at Liberty Baptist to become a Baptist minister and ends up a Catholic seminarian in Ohio, to the minister who attended mass at my current parish a few weeks ago to attend the baptism of his grandson and left elated because he didn’t know that going to a mass “could be like that,” to blogs like CJ’s where a certain willingness to see the pope not as a threat but as a shepherd is there for all to see…

…the barriers we have created are coming down for Christ wills it to be so.

This is progress toward the fulfillment of Jesus’ priestly prayer in John 17. Ut unum sint.

Truth Unites... and Divides
November 4, 2009

Fr. J: “Over at T19 this past weekend, someone named “Sarah” was at wit’s end trying to convince that readership that there was no such thing as anti-Catholicism.”

Can you provide a link to those T19 threads?

Incidentally, if someone writes “Whore of Phoenix” or “Whore of 815″ are they guilty of being anti-TEc?

Truth Unites... and Divides
November 4, 2009

Oops. I forgot a word.

Incidentally, if someone writes “_____ of Phoenix” or “Presiding _____ of 815″ are they guilty of being anti-TEc?

Sasha
November 4, 2009

Three observations:

1) Perhaps Mr. Kirk Smith (no “bishop” he in my eyes!!) ought to have been called the “Gigolo of Phoenix”, given that he’s – supposedly! – a male.

2) Therese Z. and Fr. J.: nice observations!! I’ll venture forth with: those of us who’re real Christians may well end up uniting in spite of ourselves: a) as the secularist (read “Communist”!!!) and Muslim persecutions of us intensify, we’ll HAVE TO bond together and jointly fight, willy-nilly, against those who want to eradicate our faith and selves from this earth; b) when Our Lord Wants something to happen, it WILL happen, albeit contrary to the wills of everybody. If He’s pushing us together, then there’s no escape one way or the other!!!

3) Speaking of the European Union’s “Court of Justice” banning the cross in Italian classrooms: it’s not a Muslim court (at least not as yet) but a Commie institution!!! The secularists – actually the Devil’s favourite people, alas (he is best in working with those who don’t believe in anything!!) – are foolish enough to attempt riding the Islâmic tiger, not realising that – as it happened with the young lady from Riga – it will so happen with them too!!!

chey
November 4, 2009

This lying sack of crap is very well aware that one of the Episcopal parishes that fell apart after he became bishop became a TAC church, and they have known where they were headed from the start. I have also personally met a good number of former Piskies in RCIA over the last few years. They apparently don’t teach math in seminary.

FW Ken
November 4, 2009

Fr. J -

In fairness, “Sarah” claimed that anti-catholicism does exist, just as bias against Calvinists, other protestants, and all Christians exists. She then proceeded to mock you and others who presented evidence of actual anti-catholic bias. She simply misrepresented my own comments (which were subsequently deleted) in terms that can best be called “demeaning”. Naturally, she claimed that anyone who disagrees with Catholic doctrine is considered by Catholics to be “anti-catholic”. My own opinion is that “Sarah” is one of the “Elves”, since her hateful, dishonest comments were left in place while comments rebutting her were deleted. Be that as it may, the whole matter was unfortunate and the polar opposite of the civil forum Canon Harmon says he intends for his blog. For myself, I’m done taking T1.9 seriously. I’ll probably check periodically for news, but I do wish they would stop posting on Catholic matters, since it tends to bring out the wingnuts.

I have been thinking, however, about the nature of religious bias. If I say “I don’t believe in predestination (ala calvinism)”, that’s not bias and we can talk about it. If I say “Those Calvinists are a self-righteous lot, thinking they are ‘the elect’” and that would be bias. To say “I disagree with the Catholic notion of “annulments” isn’t bias. To say, as Christopher does, that the annulment process is sometimes abused still isn’t bias (not to mention, I happen to agree with the point). To say that annulments are “Catholic divorces” and a wink-and-a-nod and, furthermore, “more evidence of the duplicity of the Roman Catholic Church”… well, that’s bias.

Katherine wrote this the other day and I think it’s pertinent here:

The battle is between Christianity in some variation of the traditional belief and, on the one hand, secular unbelief, and on the other, radical Islam. I wish those, however many, joining the Anglican/Catholic body the very best, and I think, truly, that the Pope wishes those who can affirm the Creeds and remain in other Christian bodies well also. This is not to downplay the differences among Christians, but it’s good to remember that we have much more in common with each other than we do with those who do not accept Christ

It’s unfortunate that folks like Sarah lack the integrity (and courage) to engage with people who disagree with her on some matters, particular Catholics. I really wanted to tell her to just go ahead and say it: Whore of Babylon. I think she really wanted to.

:-)

FW Ken
November 4, 2009

In addition to Fr.J’s link, this thread is also relevant:

http://www.kendallharmon.net/t19/index.php/t19/article/26130

On Father’s link, note particularly comment #31 and the deleted or edited comments below it.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
November 4, 2009

So you can call Schori a whore but bi#ch gets edited?

Fuinseoig
November 4, 2009

TUaD, I think calling the Presiding Bishop a _____ is going a bit too far. It’s easy to slide into name-calling but that makes it too easy for opponents to then devalue or dismiss one’s arguments by pointing at intemperate language and saying all one is doing is mud-slinging. The Presiding Bishop is remaining oddly quiet on this topic, so until she makes some statement, we should say nothing. Besides, calling a woman a _____ sits badly with me.

Of course, as soon as one of the plainting bishops raises the ‘Hitler Youth Nazi Pope’ cry (and I’m kinda surprised none of them have to date, to be frank), I’ll be calling them all kinds of things too.

:-)

Christopher Johnson
November 4, 2009

WTF,

No you can’t, at least not anymore. That was my fault and I apologize if anyone was offended. I used it in the title so I guess certain people figured they had carte blanche. But it’s not in the title anymore so from now on, any comment with that word in it goes straight to spam.

Laura R.
November 4, 2009

Thanks Christopher. I was getting increasingly uncomfortable over that particular repetition. Fuinseoig is absolutely right: this name-calling and mud-slinging does nothing but reinforce the other side’s perception of us as hateful reactionaries.

[...] POPE BENEDICT XVI is still on a roll and still effortlessly causing Episcopalians to make absolute jackasses of [...]

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