The Episcopals are a body who have made it clear that the faith of their grandparents is not, and cannot be, more than a private opinion within their precincts. A somewhat tacky opinion at that, and they are not sure how long they will continue to put up with it at all.

I think Rome’s approach here is fascinating. His Holiness is reaching out to Anglicans because the WAC is currently apostate at best, downright anti-Christian at worst.

Are we not to evangelize the lost? One need look no further than TEC to see an organization full of lost people.

-Jim+

Chris, you left out your favorite Rome reject, Jimmy Naughton. Do you think he would be pleased?

Gene Sutton seems pretty damned arrogant for someone who’s had a mitre for only a few months. Must come from all those years wasting away on Mt St Alban.

ARRRRRGH!! Jim lad is a big boy, he can handle it.

“looking for a big-tent church”

Some editor must have changed this. I’m sure that in the original, it said “looking for a church in a big tent with three rings”.

After all, we know for a fact that they’ve got the clowns – both those who were in the Clown Eucharist, and the ones who are running TEC……..

At least he has better manners than Bishop Frade:

“Sutton says the two churches enjoy good relations here. He says he consults with his counterparts at the archdiocese when a Catholic priest wants to join the Episcopal diocese, and vice-versa.

“We actually get several inquiries a year,” he said. “We know we can call up the archbishop or [Auxiliary] Bishop [Denis J.] Madden and say, ‘Give us the lowdown on that person.’ Now, we have a few from our side who go there, and they’ll call on us. We don’t want to give each other bad apples.”

Dang! Guess that means we can’t offload Fr. Richard McBrien?

Fuinseoig, I’m closer than you are. If McBrien needs help packing, I’ll take care of it.

to send Rome FW Ken

not that good a catch, really. I’m truly just a sinner with a big mouth.

“The door swings both ways.”

So do some of your Bishops, which is why we’re having this discussion.

I re-raise, Ken. I’m truly just a sinner with a big mouth who started one of these blog doohickeys that all the kids are into these days.

I think you are both sinners that need a stiff drink and strong encouragement to get a massage and relax for the weekend.

-Jim+

stephen, you made me laugh out loud, and after a day of corporate hell, I needed that.

Stephen: Thanks for the laugh.

I think this is fine. I’ve been a big advocate of encouraging those who dissent from Catholic teaching – and are unwilling to change their views – to go to a church that better suits their needs. I’d rather they say, and practice orthodoxy, but if they’re going to spend all their time undermining Church teaching, well…don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

But this won’t happen. Why? Because dissenters are cool. They’re the “rebels” who can play martyr because the big, mean, bad Catholic Church won’t let the womyn play priestess and won’t bless gay unions and won’t say baby-killling’s a-okay. If they went to the Episcopal Church, and the conservative ones came to Catholicism, they’d be miserable in a sea of like-minded folk. There’d be no conservatives to browbeat into compromising their faith! The media attention would go away! They’d just be more fish in the same, like-minded, theologically liberal pond!

Where’s the fun in that?

Not that good a catch, really. I’m truly just a sinner with a big mouth.

Likewise, Ken!

A highly entertaining spoof news item found somewhere over at T19 in comments:
http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm?headline=s3i62285

Enjoy! Do be careful of liquids!

I’ve never met an Episcopal priest who was formerly a Catholic priest who hadn’t made the switch because he got married (usually after an illicit relationship with someone before actually leaving the active Catholic priesthood). Certainly the married state is an honorable one — unless that person is already bound by the vow of celibacy.

Didn’t Sutton just loose a convent?

So, they’re trying to get some Episcopalians/Anglicans to switch? Well, we’ll just take some of yours. Nyah, nyah. I thought bishops were supposed to be adults.

the WAC is currently apostate at best, downright anti-Christian at worst.

And here’s where the other shoe drops — when Rome makes the announcement, “All further relations with TEO and the AOoC will be handled by the Secretariat for Non-Christian Religions, and not by the Secretariat for Christian Unity.”

I expect 815 to turn into a melted pile of glop when that happens.

“I expect 815 to turn into a melted pile of glop when that happens.”

What, you don’t think it is already?

The ABC is to meet with Pope Benedict very soon. Should be an interesting conversation.

Mark, from what I can make out, God help Catholicism in America if Fr. Thomas Reese ever swims the Thames, because apparently he’s the only Roman Catholic priest any of the newspapers or magazines have contact details for

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, yes, the All Saints Sisters of the Poor in Catonsville, MD have gone over to Rome (to be more precise, 10 out 12 have). As best I could tell, the proceedings were amicable, and Sutton was quite gracious about it. But that doesn’t change the fact that TEC continues to lose some of their best people.

Someone at T19 conjectured that maybe Rowan Williams is planning to tell the pope he’s taking him up on the offer…and wished it was true so that the AC could have an orthodox ABC. Even that would not solve all the problems.

Fuinseoig -

Actually, I hear ABC News has Fr. McBrien on speed dial, so they can probably spare Fr. Reese.

As a Catholic let me give my heartfelt thanks for taking Father Matthew Fox off our hands. Is he still teaching that goofy Creation SPirtuality nonsense with Starbuck or Starhawk or whatever her name was?

Of course the door swings both ways. We are in pan-Christian realignment with conservatives leaving mainline churches for evangelical ones and Catholicism (with a tiny trickle to Orthodoxy) and liberals leaving Catholicism for the mainline churches. No surprise there. I work in a church where it seems the majority of the most fervent and active Catholics are converts. I can live just fine with that.

The bishop of Maryland has missed the point though. This is not a competition, this is a matter of fidelity to Christ–and TEC isn’t even interested in that anymore.

Wow. . .for an organization that prides itself on being at the cutting edge of revolutionary innovation, these Episcopal bishop-types sure do sound like broken records.

What I find highly amusing is that despite all the inclusive rhetoric and silly signs welcoming you, TEC’s numbers are crashing. In contrast, the number of conversions to the RCC increase year after year. So, why is the radically inclusive church dying and the tradition-bound, radically exclusive church thriving?

Fr. Philip, OP

Fr. Phillip -

In the United States, the Catholic Church is barely holding it’s own, and that’s due to immigration, mainly hispanic, although I know a fair number of African Catholics are here as well. The last religious poll I saw put “ex-Catholics” as one of the largest religious populations in the country. I understand that in Ireland, it’s the Polish immigrants propping up the numbers.

In the U.S., Catholics make up about 25% of the population; world-wide, I think it’s about 18%. Both of those percentages have held steady for a generation now, which means that we aren’t really growing, just reproducing (being uneddicated and all). The most dramatic growth is in Africa, where the Anglicans and (I think) other mainline denominations are growing as well. Which makes the Anglophone countries look even worse!

I haven’t touched on ASA (average Sunday attendance). My diocese runs about 20% of our official membership at Sunday Mass on average. I understand nationally it’s about 35% – 40%. We should be evangelizing our own people; clearly we aren’t doing it all that well.

So put it altogether and there really isn’t room for too much celebration. I don’t mean to rain on anyone’s parade, since every soul is a cause for rejoicing. But there’s another, more sober way to look at the data.

We can always count on FW Ken for a balanced picture. The battle is between Christianity in some variation of the traditional belief and, on the one hand, secular unbelief, and on the other, radical Islam. I wish those, however many, joining the Anglican/Catholic body the very best, and I think, truly, that the Pope wishes those who can affirm the Creeds and remain in other Christian bodies well also. This is not to downplay the differences among Christians, but it’s good to remember that we have much more in common with each other than we do with those who do not accept Christ (and that includes most of the mainstream Protestant leadership).

The reasons a great many of the womynpriest/gay rights/flagburner types don’t switch have a great deal to do with sexiness, habit and ambition.

As a progressive catholic at odds with Rome you have the whole media-friendly rebel cachet. If you switch to the Episcopalians you become one in a crowd and you join the Establishment.

Likewise, being catholic is part of a great many people’s identity. It is a habit of thought. Such things can be awfully resilient.

Finally, if you stay catholic and progressive then if your side ever ‘wins’, you’ll be the top dog. Switch to somewhere else and you have to begin again.

I’m not saying that those three factors apply to all under all circumstances, but an awful lot of the ‘sensitive and caring’ catholic crowd seem to live into those traits.

Bugs Bunny: “Of course, you know this means war!”

The Episcopal Organization is getting more and more like a cartoon every day.

Now where did I put my Illudium P-36 Explosive Space Modulator? -Marvin Martian

BTW – The Presiding Heretic is coming here today to install the new bishop of SD. Very appropriate for that witch to fly in on her broom on Halloween.

Because it’s Oct. 31, here’s a seasonal article…
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/31/us/31religion.html?_r=1&hpw

While TEC and other churches have been drinking the cultural koolaid and shrinking, paganism has been growing:

“Over the course of those 11 years, the survey went from tabulating 8,000 Wiccans nationally — that branch of Paganism was the only one to turn up — to 134,000 Wiccans, 33,000 Druids and 140,000 Pagans. (Others identify as Heathens.) The sociologist Helen A. Berger, who is doing research on Pagan demography, said she believed that a more accurate current number would fall between 500,000 and one million.”

At the rate both groups are growing won’t take long for the pagans to overtake TEC. There are now so many Try searching online and you will learn that many Americans are involved in some kind of spiritualistic endeavor, most of it far from orthodox Christianity.

In preparation for baptism, a thorough investigation and renunciation of occult activities, and often burning of books and objects is necessary these days…even in the US.

Sibyl,
In prayer ministry, we have people do just that.

You’d be surprised the amount and kinds of occult activities high school and college students have been engaged. It is necessary to ask God’s forgiveness and renounce all this, because false worship is giving part of yourself to evil spirits.
God requires all of us as in a faithful marriage relationship.

Recently, at the MTV awards, a ‘star’ led a prayer to satan and they all held hands and did so and NO ONE objected or even questioned it.

Katherine -

I’m reading up on the Renaissance popes and am not in too triumphalistic a mood at the moment.

Stephen,
You beat me to the “door swings both ways” comment. Bravo