I wondered why ol’ Jimbo was ranting in such a nutty manner until I checked the link. Boston Globe. Ah, now I see. Anyway, the Bishop of Rome, in response to requests from some folks, issues a statement setting forth a way in which these folks, and any others who want to, (emphasis on “want to”) can convert to the Catholic Church and retain some elements of their ecclesial identity, which all appears to be an appropriate and kindly pastoral gesture. So why is ol’ Jimbo so upset by all this? I mean, sure, it will cause us to revert to the Dark Ages, unemancipate women and end all human life as we know it on this planet. But, other than that, why is he so upset? Have guys in red outfits from the Spanish Inquisition been threatening the poor fella? Has he been finding rosaries tied to his windshield wipers? Is someone writing Latin graffitti on his sidewalk? By the way, Jimbo, the word “disgruntled” was not part of any report I read. Got a cite or link for me? Bet ya don’t.

“From the misfit fringe of another denomination” I don’t know how he can see Ortodox Anglicans as the “misfit fringe” when the misfit fringe is TEC and the ACoC.

Dude’s been mainlining Dan Brown.

Man, this guy’s a gem, Chris. Where’d you find him?

He’s been around for a while. He’s one of the go-to Catholics whenever a liberal media person wants someone who’ll tell him what he wants to hear. Dude’s Dale Price’s Frank Griswold which is why I kind of felt bad about taking him on.

“While the Vatican just says no…”

As I recall, “Just say no” was the recommended response to an offer of mind-altering and addicting chemical substances. Now I know which church the stoners washed up in.

He’s a former Catholic priest, of course.

“(T)he common Anglican practice of fully welcoming alienated Roman Catholics, while eschewing any pressure on them to convert.”

So… if I were a disgruntled American Catholic (heck, I don’t even need to be American, Jimmy says it’s a common “Anglican” practice), I could turn up for church every Sunday in my nearest Anglican parish, partake of any and all sacraments (up to ordination?), formally put my name down as a member – and still be a Roman Catholic.

Nope, not seeing it. Maybe I’d better ask my Church of Ireland minister brother-in-law why he never told me I could have been attending his church and been a member of his congregation and still be a Roman Catholic – c’mon, what good is it to have connections if they don’t come through for you?

Three guesses by the name Carroll: he’s either (1) one of those “loyal Catholic liberals” he’s weeping about having been betrayed by wicked Rome (2) lapsed Catholic but why let that stop him telling the Pope what he should be doing (3) liberal and lapsed who moreover has jumped to the Episcopalians and is highly indignant that the Pope doesn’t think Jack is as good as his master.

Loved the bit about “The story of the Vatican raid on the Anglican communion was front page news because these issues go deeper than religion. Nothing less than the survival of the human species is at stake.”

Yes – it’s the End of the World As We Know It!

“then there were the Holocaust-denying lovers of Latin”

That’s probably a reference to the SSPX (the talks are ongoing) and the infamous ‘Bishop’ Williamson whose interview about his views on the Holocaust went out on Swedish television on the same date the formal excommunications of the SSPX bishops were lifted.

Don’t Bogart that joint, Jim.

Last week’s anti-Anglican salvo from Rome shows how far the Catholic leadership has fallen from the heights of Vatican II.

Obviously he’s viewing events while standing on his head.

“…not only a slap at women and homosexuals whose progress toward equality is a global measure of justice;”

‘Scuse me, Jim-Bo, but this woman swam the Tiber under her own power and of her own free will. Of course, I admit to being under mental duress at the time — I had just read the Catechism. (It’s a big green book — I don’t think Jim Carroll has ever opened it, although it’s easily available via Amazon.) Naturally, this experience was enough to make me shut down my brain and submit blindly to the Patriarchy.

Now, will someone please hand this poor man a paper bag and make him breath into it for a while?

Well, this was fun. The Spirit of Vatican II, Opus Dei, all the usual catch phrases. This guy’s just angry because he has re-discovered the fact that the Pope is Catholic.

Fuinseoig, perhaps this doesn’t happen in Ireland, but in the USA, Catholics are welcomed at communion with no problems in the vast majority of Anglican or Episcopalian parishes. (Actually, some of the Episcopal ones don’t even care if communicants are human, but that’s another thread.) Usually you can’t serve on the Vestry if you’re not “received.” They don’t re-confirm Catholics who want to join, they just shake their hands. This was entirely different in earlier decades, when you had to be a confirmed Episcopalian to receive communion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Carroll_(novelist)

Everything you need to know about James Carroll.

If I’m not confusing him with John Cornwall, this is the guy who claimed he got his Constantine’s Sword schtick straight from research in the Vatican libraries. Unfortunately, there are no (or very limited) records of his being there.

James makes his living bashing the Roman Catholic Church … while claiming to be RC. This claim gives him the status of an expert and instant credibility. He therefore cannot be accused of not knowing his subject or of prejudice. It is a win/win for him. The interesting thing is that there are so many RC (at least claimed) columnists and commentators in the same mode. He fades into the crowd these days. Maureen Dowd recently wrote a column using the old … “when I was in Catholic school” line complete with the standard strict and scary nun character.

“James makes his living bashing the Roman Catholic Church … while claiming to be RC.”

This plays well in Boston. This and much more was why we stopped reading the Globe years ago.

This Anglo-Catholic priest will be happy to join the Church and volunteers to cuff young Jimmy up aside the head any time he runs into him. What a maroon.

the standard strict and scary nun character

Stop me if I’ve told this, but it reminds me of a fellow at the parish who talks about the days (it was 1930s Detroit) and the nuns who cracked his knuckles on a fairly regular basis. The funny thing is that he speaks of this with the greatest affection. I think he admits his knuckles needed cracking.

Katherine – ah, yes, the thorny question of intercommunion The CoI does permit RCs to receive, and that caused a problem in 1999 when our President, Mary McAleese who is a RC received communion at a service in 1997. There was further complaint by the RC Arcbishop of Dublin, Desmond Connell, in 2001 about the CoI encouraging RCs to receive:

http://www.ctlibrary.com/ct/2001/februaryweb-only/57.0b.html

Still, there’s a difference between being invited to receive the Lord’s Supper in your local Episcopalian church as a baptised Christian (or, depending on locale, non-baptised, non-Christian, or any combination of the above) and being “fully welcomed” without any “pressure to convert”.

Maybe it’s just me, but if you’re attending an Anglican church by choice, living all your parochial life in that congregation, how can you say “But I’m not just a catholic/Catholic Christian in the sense that some very touchy Protestants are saying “Hey, we are too catholics*”, I’m a Roman Catholic”?

(*Forgive the snark: I’m lurking on a site where a cross-section of Lutherans, Southern Baptists, Evangelicals and assorted non-denominationals are waxing merry about Catholics objecting to the use of ‘Roman’ in the term ‘Roman Catholic’ and I’m torn between amusement and huffiness that these are the same traditions that were very insistent, in their time, that they absolutely were not Catholics; however, now that they’re re-discovering the Creeds, they’re faced with that bit about ‘one, holy, catholic and apostolic church’ and are doing some fancy footwork explaining to their congregations that when it says ‘Catholic’, it doesn’t mean, y’know, ‘Catholic’ as in RomanCatholic).

The point of which last is that if they have to explain to people that “Catholic” is not the same as “Roman Catholic”, then it pretty much acknowledges that fudge as they may, for 99.9% of people, “Catholic” is indeed the same animal as “Roman Catholic”.

I think I’ve figured out why so many people get their panties in a bunch over this. It means the end of the Anglican option. For decades now, the traditional, orthodox Anglicans have been supporting the various churches of the Anglican Communion. If they leave, where are the warm bodies and cold cash going to come from? If the Anglo-Catholics leave, will that make it even easier for the Evangelicals to go. And since the bulk of the Anglican Communion is either Evangelical (especially in Africa), there go the numbers, there goes the ASA, there goes the credibility, there goes the whole Establishment vibe. What will they have left? A few thousand homosexuals and man-eating feminists. Whoop-di-do.

What freaking religion does this guy claim to represent again?!? Unitarians? Scientology? Eckankar?

Uh… what? He says he’s a… a Cath-….(???)

BWA-HAW-HAW-HAW!!!!

Good one, guys! No, really (HAW! HAW!), what is he?

While the Vatican just says no, the rest of us reckon with the ways in which the worldwide status of women emerges as the key to development and a hoped-for eradication of poverty.

HOW WILL MAKING WOMEN PRIESTS ACCOMPLISH THIS?!?!?!

Sorry to yell, but allowing some women – mostly in privileged, developed nations, mind you – to dress up in liturgical garb won’t help that 6-year-old Islamic girl who’s about to experience the joys of FGM, or the illiterate Afghani mother who lives in fear of the Taliban.

Do you really think Islamists are going to look at women priest and say, “Gee, we were wrong! Let’s make women imams and stop treating them like chattle!” ‘Cause if you do, you’d better put down whatever the heck it is you’ve been smoking. Or ask for a stronger dosage of your meds. Whichever works best.

Again, this guy’s undies are in a twist because the Catholic Church will not bend to the politically correct cause du jour. It ticks them off that they can’t brainwash the minds of congregants who are given an option other than what Anglicanism does/does not offer (which, in many cases, seems to be a glowing affirmation of the Stuart Smalley mantra).

How will they browbeat us into accepting things we find theologically incompatible if we call Rome our home?

Quotes from Jim Caroll

Will old habits of tribalism, nationalism, and excluding religious denominationalism prevent a new world humanism from emerging?

Will the ancient wisdom of moral philosophies embedded in the great spiritual traditions be available as guides to future decisions?

Heterodox Social Humanism pretty well sums up his real religion.

“Blah, blah, blah, Ginger, blah, blah.

The visceral anger on the Left derives from a palpable sense that ACs have slipped the noose. Liberals thought they had ACs trapped into a choice of “Submit to the modern world, or be hanged!” Either outcome tended to confirm the Liberal worldview. In addition, Liberals anticipated the pleasure of watching ACs struggle with the reality of their appointed fate. It was to be a metaphor of the outworking of the whole conflict with insufficiently modern religion, and liberals wanted to relish every second. But then along comes the Vatican to cut the rope with a rifle shot. Liberals have been deprived, and they are angry about it.

Of course, they won’t say this out loud. But I will.

carl

`Carl has it. Misery loves company, demands company. The company has found that they can leave the party anytime they want to. The Miserable are unhappy. They were before, they will be yet unhappier. But you don’t have to be there for them! The happy folks who want to worship God would even *invite* the Miserable to be happy with them, but that would make the Miserable more unhappy.

TO: Bob and Carl – I couldn’t agree more with your analysis. It’s as though the liberals and TEcers are all yelling, “Oh No! They’re getting away!”

I can’t comment on all Anglicans, but my experience with the Episcopalian organization confirms that they do, indeed, welcome alienated Roman Catholics.

It’s the real Roman Catholics that they can’t stand.

Mr. Johnson: Thanks.

“Blah, blah, blah, Ginger, blah, blah”

Yes, Paula, TEO is increasingly becoming something out of The Far Side.

In fact, it all reminds me of one of my Far Side favorites, where several lemmings running past another lemming sitting in his hole say: “Hey, Fred, you’ll miss out on all the fun! We’re all going down to the beach!!”

Further to BillB: Jim Caroll is in depair and total intellectual collapse because he cannot understand why the Catholic Church could be so lacking in vision, so out of touch with modernity, indeed so backward looking as to refuse to join the other liberal/progrssive denominations on the path of suicide, and in the process standing in the way of and “prevent(ing) a new world humanism from emerging”.

Reading the quotes made me think of the John Lennon song “Imagine”.

Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

I’m always faintly disturbed by people who promote the idea that if we all just gave away our deeply held important beliefs we could all just get along. I always wonder just how far we are supposed to go with this.

I mean, if I stopped deeply caring about my children and they were hurt by someone, I wouldn’t want to punish the offender. Or if I didn’t care about my friends overdosing on heroin I wouldn’t create conflict with them trying to get them to stop or be upset if they killed themselves.

Obviously these are gratuitous hypothetical examples of the theory but I make my point. If I stop caring about the vital differences in Catholicism compared to the Western gestalt of “as long as it’s consenting” and “men and women are interchangeable” then all the problems go away.

Sure… nothing to kill or die for, but nothing to live for either. I’m substituting genuine values for vague fuzzy whateverness and a numbed shrugging of my proverbial shoulders.

this is the funniest thing I’ve read so far this week’ great stuff… must share

the Vatican’s rampant fallibility

What the heck is rampant fallibility? RAMPANT? Is that fallibility run amok, or something?

If this guy writes his novels the way he writes his screeds, they must make Dan Brown look like Flaubert.

Hey, Fuinseoig, at least the lower-church folks in your neighborhood are reading down to the end of the Creed to the “one, holy, catholic and apostolic” bit. They used to stop at the end of the Holy Spirit section and pretend the rest wasn’t there. Give them credit for progress.

“Will (an) old…religious (denomination) prevent a new world humanism from emerging?”

Yes. That pretty much sums it all up.

“not only a stark contrast with the common Anglican practice of fully welcoming alienated Roman Catholics, while eschewing any pressure on them to convert -”

Oh, right, no pressure. Of course, from the Roman point of view, they become an Anglican as soon as they receive Communion in TEC- which is what the “fully welcoming” is all about. (There is speculation this is why KJS snubbed the Pope- she was informed that she would not be offered Communion) And from the TEC point of view, you go on the membership roll as soon as your money hits the plate. Most of the people I know who “joined” TEC in the last 30 years walked in the door with whatever belief system they happened to have. No conversion necessary. Just ask KJS- cause whatever religion she is practicing, it sure as heck is not Anglicanism as expressed in the Catechism or Offices of Instruction.

Well, here in Ireland, there was a definite snob value in becoming Church of Ireland. Some of the enlightened, as soon as they had wiped off the mud on their boots from their peasant background, were very happy to inform the rest of us that they had heard the call.

I’m thinking of one journalist who was quite happy to use his newspaper column to inform us that, while he was no longer Catholic and had liberated his mind all the way to atheism, his kids were CoI. See how progressive and enlightened he was?

I’m in no position to say anything about his children’s religious convictions, and I’m quite sure they had joined the Church of Ireland through genuine religious conviction, but for proud Papa it was a banner of having arrived in the upper middle classes, of being progressive and modern and enlightened, and of being so much more betterer than the rest of us mucksavages still cowering under the jackboot of Rome.

James Carroll and Richard Dawkins. Both Cryptopalians.

Yeah, I loved Richard’s logic: being a priest is low-status, not intellectually challenging, and involves fuzzy thinking (at beat) and deliberate deceit (at worst) when engaging in acts of magic and ritual cannibalism, so that any averagely intelligent, honest person wouldn’t like the job – and it’s an insult to women that they can’t be priests!

So under no circumstances should anyone want to be a priest, anymore than they’d want to be a liver fluke, but how dare the Vatican who can or can’t be priests!

Bit of a contradiction there, methinks

Oh you’re funny! I’m bookmarking you! Come visit me! By the way, the Holy Father is on the fence, it seems to me, trying to hold on to tradition in some areas, and hugely modern in others. Read Caritatis in Verite and tell me what religion he is speaking of that should ‘newly-inform Europe’? Catholicism, or a blend of the old ‘all that is good in all religions’ of VII? And in the context of pushing for a world-governance informed by this ‘religion,’ and also in the context of his continual praise of the US’s ‘vibrant democracy’ and of Obama himself,it seems to be — quite scary. (Yo’d have to be a pro-life activist to feel the full sting–who’s got our back??!) I’m hoping SSPX puts some content, some continuity, in the ‘religion’ he is speaking of. Either Christ is King, or he ain’t. Liberalism’s support of a mega-religion reminds one of the Community episode where they attempt to design an emblamatic student free from all racial and gender specifics. Futile, and sterile, and laughable.

The Little Myrmidon
“This plays well in Boston. This and much more was why we stopped reading the Globe years ago.”
My dear Myrmy- when I was but a Minute-boy I had a paper route and actually DELIVERED the Glob to houses in my hood. (mea maxima culpa)

Minuteman – so you’re saying you were young, you needed the money?

…snicker..snort… I’m tellin’ ya epople, Simon & Garfunkle said it best, “I get the news I need on the weather report.”

Spot-on, Chris!

Fuinseoig, Bishop Williamson is indeed a bishop; no need for mock inverted commas. (The only issue is his status hasn’t been regularised yet by Rome so he can’t function as one right now in the official church. There’s no question they recognise his orders.) His views on history go against the ruling ideology (‘Heretic! Excommunicate him!’… gotta savour the irony) but 1) aren’t heretical (somehow I missed the memo or e-mail announcing that ‘six million’ and ‘gas chambers’ were defined doctrine) and 2) whether you agree with them or not, don’t defend the Nazis murdering hundreds of thousands of people (including Archbishop Lefebvre’s father). I think the Holocaust did happen as reported but that Stalin was worse, which you never hear about. (Mainstream view: ‘Hitler was bad because he was, you know, intolerant, but Stalin was OK because he was an idealist; he just made mistakes.’)

Katherine, back in the good old days the Piskies didn’t reconfirm errant RCs or Orthodox who wanted to join. They recognised those churches as Catholic churches with real sacraments and so ‘received’ such people into membership just like now.

“James makes his living bashing the Roman Catholic Church … while claiming to be RC.”

This plays well in Boston.

I went to school with those types. Now that I’ve read Thomas Day I understand. (If you want to understand RCs in English-speaking lands, read him.) He also explains why old frauds like Carroll don’t just shut up and become Piskies. They hate the English and hate high church so they try to turn Rome into their cultural equivalent of the Piskies instead. Been at it for 40 years. Looks like, what with Pope Benedict and his Catholic revival accelerating what’s already going on among the kids (among blogs, the New Liturgical Movement and Holy Whapping for example), they lost. Most of these liberals like Carroll are old.

What will they [the Episcopalians] have left? A few thousand homosexuals and man-eating feminists.

Very likely. As longtime Piskie spokesman Bishop Epting said on tele about the Anglo-Papalists possibly accepting the Pope’s offer, ‘God bless you as you seek a place for your journey’.

Young Fogey, I may be prepared to recognise his ordination as a priest. His consecration as a bishop, however, is dubitable; he is not a bishop of the Roman Catholic Church.

However, if we’re talking titles such as Bishop T.D. Jakes of The Potter’s House, that’s a different matter. Founders and members of their own separate institutions can call themselves any titles they wish.

The reason I’m so snarky about Bishop Williamson soi-disant (and it’s not just him alone, it’s his brother-bishops in the SSPX) is that these split-off groups which started off as (quite literally) more Catholic than the Pope generally end up on the far side of loopy.

For instance, the ‘Bishop’ who ordained Sinéad O’Connor a ‘priest’ (in between her being married, divorced, re-married, separated, lesbian, bisexual and whatever she’s doing today, God love her) is Michael Cox, an archbishop in the Irish Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church, who claims validity through Pierre Martin Ngô Đình Thục, the former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Huế.

Would anyone here be shocked, shocked I tell you! to be told that he started out in one of those “Vatican II is heresy!!!!” ultra-hyper-traditional groups and has now not alone ordained a woman priest, but has consecrated as bishop Fr. Pat Buckley, who makes a speciality out of second marriages for the divorced and gay unions?

Someone show me where in the Mass of Pius V it says “Can be celebrated by ladies also”?

But Williamson wasn’t priested in the official church. Rome recognises his orders as a bishop as it does the Orthodox and the Polish National Catholic Church, not to do with Poland really but a 100-year-old immigrant schism in America (started because the local bishops dissed the Polish newcomers – they’re tiny and now an interesting mix of lots of modern RC culture with a conservative Polish flavour and some Episcopal influences like married bishops; they used to be protégés of the Piskies).

That background on the bishop who ordained Sinéad ‘Are You Still in Show Business?’ O’Connor explains the mismatch of her and that little church’s name, which at the time I think was the Tridentine Latin Rite Church or something like that. Somehow I don’t think she was using the old Roman Missal.

Given her age, can she read it?

[...] 29, 2009 by Scott W. Chris Johnson of MCJ rips James Carroll a new one in a fisk of the latter’s bemoaning of the fact that the project to Episcopalize the Catholic Church [...]

Missed this earlier, Fuinseoig:

Yeah, I loved Richard’s logic… So under no circumstances should anyone want to be a priest, anymore than they’d want to be a liver fluke, but how dare the Vatican who can or can’t be priests!

Bit of a contradiction there, methinks.

Brilliant! Had a conversation like that more than 20 years ago with one of those self-hating RCs at school. He questioned the divinity of Christ then complained when I defended the old Mass: ‘the people can’t participate’, that sort of thing. Logic: if Jesus wasn’t God so the church is a fraud, why do you give a damn?