So, Pope Benedict is supposed to clear things through the ABofC – even though the actions all pertain to the RCC, and will only affect those who LEAVE the Anglican church. Haaaaaahahahahahahahahaha!! ROTFLMAO!

It’s rather like Ms. Schori complaining about whatever ++Duncan does – he’s not part of her church anymore, so it’s none of her business. (I know, that hasn’t stopped her yet…) Lord Carey can gnash his teeth and wail all he wants – in the end, it only reflects badly on him. And, after years of endless dialogue, discussion, indaba-daba-doo, synods, committees, panels, conventions, commissions, statements, reports, &c, &c, &c…… how can Lord Carey (or anyone else) expect to be taken seriously when they suggest MORE talking is necessary, rather than *action*, as Pope Benedict has so aptly demonstrated!

One of my RC friends said when I told him about this, “Benny did WHAT?!” Usually, if you are catching flack from all sides, you are probably doing something right.

re: Holding Schori et al accountable

Looks like some serious folks may be considering that possibility…..
Check out a number of articles beginning to pop up on the net, including particularly, two at the Anglican Curmudgeon

http://accurmudgeon.blogspot.com/2009/10/ms-jefferts-schori-produce-letters.html

http://accurmudgeon.blogspot.com/2009/10/bandit-bishop-presiding-judge-jury-and.html

Aiyeeee, it’s the Telegraph! Who knows what Carey said?

ONLY two weeks before? If it had been up to me, I wouldn’t have informed him until two DAYS before the announcement. What difference would it have made, anyway? Rowan himself said that he knew this was coming down the pike a couple of weeks in advance, and he was still searching for his ass with both hands until October 20, when he finally got around to writing to inform his bishops. He just went into his standard “freeze and stare at the headlights” attitude; he would have done the same thing if he’d had two months or two years advance notice.

Dr. Mabuse, you owe me reparartions for Dorito chips and liquid now glued onto my monitor and a new keyboard!

I’m typing through the tears of laughter.

Here’s a little interesting fact:
“October 23, 2009
In just three months, the Anglican Church in North America has welcomed 39 new congregations. When the Anglican Church in North America officially launched in late June, it included 703 churches in the United States and Canada. Today, there are 742 congregations affiliated with the Anglican Church.

“We have an ambitious goal of planting 1,000 new churches in the next five years. It is very encouraging to see how much progress has already been made,” said Archbishop Robert Duncan.”

So the errant and rebellious among the Anglican/Episcopalians are going to lose members from both ends and the middle.

Congratulations to Williams/Shori/Crew/Robinson/BAnderson…they may have considerable money and property, but as Archbishop Akinola said in 2003 – ‘All the money on earth won’t insulate me from the fires of hell if I fail to protect the Faith.’

There are other ‘rewards’ in store for unfaithful clergy – Malachi 2:3

“If what I hear is right, that he [Dr Williams] was only told two weeks ago, then I am appalled. He should express his unhappiness with the process,” Dr Carey said.

Right. You do that little thing, Dr Williams…

followed by….the sound of crickets chirping.

Truly, Mr. George Carey had a good chance to do something!! However, he didn’t – quite the contrary, when the first initiatives were being explored to save TEO conservative/orthodox members, he blocked them on the advice of Mr. Griswold; he refused recognition to AMiA and libelled its actions, he didn’t consider disciplining such Antichrists as Griswold, Browning, Dixon, Harris, etc..

No, I’ve positively ZERO sympathy for him and his fellow-gabbers!!! While I might have my unease at certain parts of Romanist doctrine (it’s mainly down to prayers to the saints – transubstantiation is nowhere nearly as bad as it’s made out to be!), there’s no question in my mind about Benedict XVI’s being a true Christian star!!! Think about it – would a real Nazi have the kind of humanity, broad vision, mercy, zeal and the rest to undertake such bold, even audacious, initiatives to bolster the church he’s serving as the “servant of the servants of God”?!?? Not a hope!!!!

To boot, he HAS undertaken action, as has the Antiochian branch of Orthodoxy! They are providing the ports TEO, the AOofC and even the OofE & OofI have been ruthlessly denying!!! Mr. Rowan Williams is nothing short of a Judas, betraying those calling to him back into the hands of their enemies!!! And for Mr. George Carey to cry “foul” against those who’re genuinely out to help their fellow-Christians is scarcely better than the sin of Ananias!!

OH FREAKING PLEASE. This was designed for the Traditional Anglican Communion, which has been roundly ignored by “official Anglicanism” for about 30 odd years. And it comes at an inconvenient time for poor dumb-a$$ Rowan who has nothing but suck his thumb and wish this would all go away for the past 6 years.

Seriously, have you read about the six (seven?) bishops that represent the “broad center” of TEO who met with Rowan last week? They all voted FOR VGR, FOR developing SSBs and FOR shelving B033 this past summer and were warmly greeted by Rowan. They totally shivved him in the back after his appeal for “restraint.” Maybe he wasn’t serious about “restraint” after all.

Now that he is forcing women bishops on the CofE with only a guide of etiquette separating good Anglo-Catholics and other traditionalists from tyranny, I say “Tough noogies Rowan.” At a time that required decisive leadership, you provide NONE. If you lose 1000 priests to the Roman Catholics, it’s your own dang fault. You reap what you sow baby. You reap what you sow.

Lord Carey has no business telling the Pope how to run his Church. Does the Pope tell the ABC how to run the CofE? No, he merely says what conditions would improve, or make possible, ecumenical talks. In Carey’s case, he is personally responsible for a lot of the mess. He pushed women’s ordination in the early ’90s as representing what would really make the church grow. That turned out not so well, and then he played footsie with Griswold in the early days of the present crisis. He should be confessing, not criticizing.

I don’t think that all American Anglican conservatives have done nothing, Chris. Those in ACNA, and others outside TEC, have given up a lot, particularly the clergy, to witness for the faith.

Bill2, right. Those “broad center” bishops are anything but. Michael Curry, for instance, has a written policy allowing same-sex blessings, has pushed for the homosexualist agenda throughout the diocese and has reportedly pushed out numerous conservatives. If he’s a centrist, I shudder to consider what the left is.

In my experience as a former Anglican and, currently, as prof of Catholic theology, most people who object to Catholic teachings aren’t really objecting to Catholic teaching but some sort of weird half-understood quarter-truth. Heck, I get questions from life-long Catholics in their 70′s about the very basics of the faith. The most difficult thing for non-Catholic Christians to understand about Catholicism is what I call the “whole-cloth” way that the RCC teaches the faith. So much of Protestantism is a piecemeal assortment of positions on specific issues that often don’t mesh philosophically. Of course, Catholics, modern Catholics anyway, do the same thing.

Fr. Philip, OP

Doc Carey is silly old fool, for whom I have even less time than for his successor. He laid his prestige on the line to get WO through the General Synod — it passed by only two votes — and the Church of England has been reaping the whirlwind ever since.

Also, see this:

http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=12-05-046-b

to recall (lest ye forget) that Doc Carey was no more orthodox than his successor, unless all of orthodoxy is comprised in anti-sodomism.

Well said, CJ – and a great challenge you’ve laid down regard KJS!

I am fascinated by the language being used to describe this, by newspapers and bloggers alike: everything from “wooing” to “luring” (which gives me the image of the Pope as the witch with the gingerbread house and the Anglicans as Hansel and Gretel being enticed in by the sweeties).

Now, to be fair, if the Episcopalians did a statement about how, if any dissatified Roman Catholics wanted to convert en masse, they were setting up a means for that, I’d be huffing and puffing and complaining as well. But I’d accept that if people didn’t accept the tenets of the Church anymore and wanted out, you couldn’t stop them and it was probably better all around for them to follow their consciences.

The complaining about “all these people we don’t want in our congregations are daring to leave”? That I don’t get. I’m beginning to think that it’s less to do with the actual people themselves, and more to do with the Pope. If, I dunno, the President of the Southern Baptist Convention had made such an offer, would there be this same kind of reaction?

I mean, to go by what the comments are, you’d imagine the Pope had said “Do you promise to oppress and despise women? Yes? Do you swear to hate and loathe LGBT? Yes? Then come on in exactly as you are! Nothing else required – except of course the blood-oath of absolute blind unwavering obedience to me as God-Emperor of the entire Earth.”

Has the Pope himself said anything? No, we’ve only had the CDF statement and the press conference with the Archbishops of Canterbury and Westminster. Now, maybe the Pope is going around the Vatican high-fiving the Curia and going “Yahoo! Laissez les bonnes temps rouler!” around a cask or two of good Bavarian beer with Monsignor Ganswein, but I don’t think so.

“Now, maybe the Pope is going around the Vatican high-fiving the Curia and going “Yahoo! Laissez les bonnes temps rouler!” around a cask or two of good Bavarian beer with Monsignor Ganswein…”

I live near the Vatican and I’ve seen them doing just that. I swear. Please…on’t tell anyone I told you this.

Fr. Philip, OP

Fuinseoig, “If, I dunno, the President of the Southern Baptist Convention had made such an offer, would there be this same kind of reaction?” No. The liberals would only jeer, because they don’t take the Southern Baptists seriously. They do take the Catholic Church seriously, little though they care to admit it, and that’s why this is so upsetting. Liberals claim that the Holy Spirit is leading them, and for someone with the credibility of the Pope to be saying the Holy Spirit leads in quite another direction is galling. He must be discredited.

Fr. Philip, I’d share a stein with Monsignor Ganswein myself, and I’m not a beer drinker (che bello!)

Ahem. Do you think we should tell them the real reason the Pope did this?

Because he’s musically-inclined, and he wanted English-speaking congregations that would actually sing in church.

On a serious note, has anyone heard anything from the Presiding Bishop regarding this?

She’s staying awfully quiet: not even a “This is a private matter between the Pope and any individuals who wish to convert” from her office. Is this an example of “Ignore it and it’ll go away” or does she genuinely think this is such a small little item it’s not worthy of notice as she continues on with the campaign of Shalom and waging reconciliation?

Fuinseoig: Not a word. I think she’s in the girls’ washroom, crying, and won’t come out.

Fuinseoig-
For 40 years, many dioceses of TEC have engaged in an active campaign to rid themselves of anyone who might take the Pope up on the offer. Having deposed the leader of Forward in Faith two weeks ago, I imagine that KJS sees the Pope’s offer as solving a problem for her. There are, of course, the dozens of lawsuits pending against Anglo Catholic dioceses and parishes that have already left TEC, but the remainder would be most likely to take the easy way out of gathering the parish and walking down the street to the local Roman Catholic Church and leaving the property to TEC. (Although, I think it would be really amusing if one parish DID keep the property, if only to see TEC try to make a “hierarchical church” argument against the Catholic Church in court.)
There is even some speculation out there that it was her getting the word from ++Rowan that the Vatican was about to move that enboldened her to move against Bishop Ackerman. Certainly, ++Rowan has been urging her to hold back, since he could not very well uphold her decision to depose the president of FiF-US without it having some impact on the rather delicate situation with FiF-UK. With Rome’s offer on the table, she no longer had to worry about ++Rowan “meddling” in TEC affairs on account of anything she might do to Bishop Ackerman, and she could get about the business of purging “her” church of the last Anglo Catholics.

I still can’t figure out what the libs are so upset; I would think this new opportunity for those darn ignorant, racist, close-minded conservatives that the left has been so anxious to get rid of, would be embraced by the left. I really can’t figure progressives out for the life of me.

“In my experience as a former Anglican and, currently, as prof of Catholic theology, most people who object to Catholic teachings aren’t really objecting to Catholic teaching but some sort of weird half-understood quarter-truth.”

I think Bishop Sheen said “There a million people in America who object to what the Catholic Church is, and ten million who object to what they THINK it is.”

I suspect the historical relationship between the Church of England and the Catholic Church is a factor in all the brou-ha-ha that doesn’t obtain with the Baptists. I don’t remember a large flap when the Antiochenes set up their Western Rite (though we did have a local flap; ask Peter C).

One wonders, however, about a group of Catholics, Call to Action types, approaching, say, Bp. Bruno and asking if they can keep their bad music and paper-mache puppets of doom.

The comments in the British press reflect, I think, a long tradition of anti-catholicism. Some of the more extreme statements recall the reaction of the British press to Cardinal Wiseman’s letter “Out of the Flaminan Gate”, which announced the reestablishment of the Catholic hierarchy in England. (Papal Aggression! Beware the Man of Blood!)

The reaction from the Episcopoleft here in the U.S. puzzles me, too. The TEC is ambivalent about Catholicism, an ambivalence routed in social class more than theology. Saint Elizabeth Seton was warned before her conversion that, if she became Catholic, she’d have to pray with Irish housemaids.

Story of the first TEC priest and parish converting whole-hog to Roman Catholicism:
““We’d been praying for this daily for two years,” said Bishop David L. Moyer, who leads the Church of the Good Shepherd, a parish in the Main Line suburbs of Philadelphia that is battling to keep its historic property. “When I heard the news I was speechless, then the joy came and the tears.”

This parish could be one of the first in the United States to convert en masse after the Vatican completes plans for a new structure to allow Anglicans to become Catholic while retaining many of their spiritual traditions, like the Book of Common Prayer and married priests.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/25/us/25church.html?_r=1

“Tough noogies”….wow, I haven’t heard that one in a long time.

Good Shepherd, Rosemont, has been ECUSA in name only for many years, of course. I doubt they’ve been contributing to the diocesan coffers, although very likely the diocese will try to get the church property.

the first TEC priest and parish converting whole-hog to Roman Catholicism

very likely the diocese will try to get the church property.

Girls’ washroom door slams open, flying monkeys are released in three … two … one …

“Ecusa in name only” – like the Diocese of South Carolina from now on.

And while Lord Carey is bawling, other bishops are packing.

I thought the keeperof the Flying Monkies was against TEC buildings going to other Anglican bodies but was fine if other sects purchased the property. So I think I think an offer to buy would be accepted. Unless of course the local TEC parish is preaching to overflow crowds. Thought not.

“One wonders, however, about a group of Catholics, Call to Action types, approaching, say, Bp. Bruno”

FW Ken – we should be so lucky

That would be fun, Fuinseoig. Let the Episcopalians try to explain away the giant papier-mache puppets of doom.

I thought the keeper of the Flying Monkies was against TEC buildings going to other Anglican bodies but was fine if other sects purchased the property.

That was the official statement, but I imagine that there will be a new official statement very soon. Originality and creativity are higher values than consistency in this case.
___

I think it is high time to call a press conference with a papier-mache puppet of doom taking questions. Then again, it might bring a lawsuit if said puppet of doom is female; the similarities … oops, gotta run. Someone at the door.

But Christopher, that’s exactly what you guys need to fill those empty pews: giant papier-mache puppets.

Why, I’m sure that one giant puppet is easily equivalent to at least three regular congregants, so if you have four puppets per service, that’s twelve people-units. Two or three services on Sunday – that’s thirty-six equivalent units of persons. And imagine all the new families of parents with small children you’d attract!

That’d definitely bump up the ASA, don’t you think?

FW Ken, it would seem that something along those lines has already happened.

I was trying to remember the name of that bijou little church-cum-art gallery in California (because I wanted to make a snarky remark about would giant papier-mache puppets fit in with their tasteful style) and I found this Episcopal church website for Trinity Church in San Francisco which graciously hosts “Sophia in Trinity”, a Catholic splinter group.

http://www.sftrinity.org/html/sophia.htm

“Jesus didn’t turn people away. We don’t intend to either. Sophia in Trinity is an inclusive community welcoming all those on the margins and especially those marginalized by the Roman Catholic Church: LGBT people, those that are divorced, remarried, those who witness to reproductive rights, all seeking justice and equality and the integrity of creation.”

Go to their webpage, and you’ll discover that their leader is a “Roman Catholic Woman Priest”, playwright and author, and lesbian who’s in a twenty-year relationship with her life-partner. Needless to say, she tried a vocation in religious life but left after a year as a novice, and left Catholicism thereafter:

http://www.victoriarue.com/html/woman_priest.html

“On second and fourth Saturdays in San Francisco, 10:30am, Victoria presides at a newly formed Catholic community Sophia in Trinity. She was invited by Trinity Episcopal Church to start a new Catholic community using their chapel.”

Once again, yet another Piskie church dedicated to the Holy Trinity is involved in malarky. Seriously, what is it about Episcopalians and the Trinity that seems to bring out the crazy?

Still, we should be grateful to them and to Bishop Andrus; if not for this, they’d be wandering around the streets making nuisances of themselves like this:

“Just before receiving my M.Div. in l988 I was asked by Dignity-NYC to con-celebrate the Eucharist with an “out” gay priest on the sidewalk, across from St. Patrick’s Cathedral in Manhattan. As lesbian and gay people, we did this for 9 months to say “we are church” to Cardinal Ratzinger and his now infamous “Halloween Letter.”

…In l997 I co-founded and con-celebrated a feminist, inclusive Eucharist with 12 other women and hundreds of witnesses on the former site of the Oakland cathedral in California. With this act, we claimed that we are all priests. The site of our Eucharist has been an inner city park, the exact spot where the cathedral collapsed in the Loma Prieta earthquake of l989. The park is peopled by the homeless of Oakland. We celebrated “A Critical Mass” for 6 years.”

Thanks, guys, for taking them off our hands!

FYI, the Western Rite in the Antiochian Archdiocese is set up somewhat differently than either the current Anglican Use or the new Personal Ordinariates. While we do have a Vicar-General, an episcopal overseer, and a liturgical commission, our Western Rite parishes are part of the geographic dioceses in which they reside, not of a separate extra-territorial diocese or eparchy.

As for the “local flap” we had here in Fort Worth when our parish joined the Western Rite, that’s water under the bridge. Last weekend, our bishop, Bp. Basil of Wichita, came for his annual visit and we were happy to have his good friend, Bp. Keith Ackerman, sitting in the congregation as an honored guest.

Oops, forgot a .

I love that website, Fuinseong. I count 17 people in the pictures, which is a veritable revival for a liberal Episcopal parish!

But inquiring minds want to know: are they doing the bunny hop or the hokie-pokie in that lower picture?

Because he’s musically-inclined, and he wanted English-speaking congregations that would actually sing in church.

LOL, Funseoig, that sounds plausible to me. Give the Piskies their due: They sing the pants off of everyone else in Christendom. They may not always believe the lyrics of those grand old hymns, but they raise the rafters singing ‘em.

Pilgrim, I think Abp Sheen’s actual quote was: “There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church— which is, of course, quite a different thing.”

Same basic idea, I suppose, but…slightly different from the implication that a million Americans hate what the Catholic Church actually is. Non?

One suspects the number is grown somewhat larger than 100 since the time of Bp. Sheen, given the propaganda efforts of the New York Times, the Boston Globe, and the LA Times.

True, there are still many misapprehensions about the Catholic Church, and more so about the Catholic Faith, even from other Christians of good will. But there are many who understand perfectly well what the Catholic Church claims to be, and hate us for it.

Quoth JustMe: “I still can’t figure out what the libs are so upset; I would think this new opportunity for those darn ignorant, racist, close-minded conservatives that the left has been so anxious to get rid of, would be embraced by the left.”

My guess is that letting them leave without comment would be seen among the libs as an acknowledgement that the non-libs are entitled to their own opinions.

Which is anathema when you’re “led by the Spirit” to “do a new thing….” After all, if your point of view is so completely in tune with what Vague Deity Concept wants for humankind, anyone who doesn’t agree with you is obviously evil…and what’s more, they know full well you’re right, so they’re compounding the “sin” of being wrong with the
“sin” of being obstinate.

But there are many who understand perfectly well what the Catholic Church claims to be, and hate us for it.

This is true!

[...] ITEM: ON THE OTHER HAND… “It isn’t just liberals who are upset about the Vatican’s recent Anglican initiative. Dr. Williams’ predecessor is furious”; A standard liberal reaction seems to be emerging to the Vatican’s recent Anglican [...]

“Make a personal protest… express his unhappiness.” oooooh! Carey is not pulling punches is he!? And does the irony of the word “protest” in this context strike anyone? Imagine the meeting with the Pope. Rowan Eyebrows says, “Er, Your Excellency, Sir, I am very very unhappy! Why was there no dialogue and listening process! No Panel of Reference! No century of conversation!” Whereupon the Pope might say something along the lines of, “Little tiny man, you don’t remind me uf your predecessors at all. Latimer, Ridley und Cranmer. Zees men were lions uf ze faith, who for zeir beliefs stood like men in the face of death. Pull yourself togezer. Und sink about grooooming yourself, bitte.”

Let’s put it this way: If Rowan Williams offered the same thing to Roman Catholics as the Pope is offering to Anglicans, what would the Pope’s reaction be? “Bwahahahahaaaa!” Something along those lines. It would make the Clown Archbishop even more of a laughingstock than he is today. However, the rout of the Anglican North is becoming such a one-sided affair, one does feel a faint twinge of pity for Ol’ Broccoli-Head. And the whines from people like Carey are simply humiliating. Shut up, Mr. Carey, and allow The Brow to take his whuppin’ like a man.