Pathetic, isn’t it? Really below pathetic. Well, from an old hockey movie “throw real Christians to real lions” and be done with it.

Christopher Johnson: “There is no future for conservative Christians in the Episcopal Organization, Ed. None whatsoever.”

One, the Communion Partner Clergy and their ACI backers disagree with you, Christopher. And two, the undefined, still-finding-their-own-a$$ Third Wayers as championed by Sarah Hey and her ilk also disagree with you, Christopher.

Just two different varieties of Institutionalist-Enablers of TEc’s soul-destroying heresy and apostasy who both believe that they are subjectively called to stay in TEc and by that deliberate choice, to be de facto yoked, complicit, and morally culpable for what TEc does.

Go figure.

Full inclusion of our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters in the life of the church is a justice matter. We can no more exclude them from ordination and the sacrament of marriage than we can exclude blacks and women. On justice matters, there can be no allowance for individual conscience, as that might promote injustice.

Chris,

This ‘bishop’ will lose his home and salary if he leaves, putting his family’s well-being in jeopardy. I don’t blame him at all for holding out!

FW Ken: Your comparison is as fallacious as it is adorable. You are so sure that your notion of “justice” is right that you would be unjust to those who disagree with you. I believe the term for that is “thoughtcrime”.

You completely ignore those of us who believe that women’s ordination is not merely wrong but impossible. It is not a question of the ability of women to emulate the day-to-day tasks of a priest but of the validity of such orders.

The ordination of homosexuals ought not to be forbidden so long as they are not unrepentant in their sin. A practising homosexual is just as unworthy of the priesthood as a proudly adulterous heterosexual.

I won’t even get into the absurdity of your racial parallel. All I’ll say is that my parish’s membership would be offended by your race-baiting, what with them being black Anglo-Catholics and all.

Kozaburo: So the bishop will only go so far to serve Christ? And you think this is understandable? And we should accept this? Whatever happened to those who died with the lions rather than deny Christ?
What about “Take up your cross and follow Me?” Or maybe, “Sell all that you have, give it to the poor and follow Me?” I have nothing but for pity for those who will sell their souls for a nice house in the suburbs and a pension. What a pathetic fool this bishop is if that is his reasoning, and what a pathetic fool you are for suggesting it as a reason for denying 2,000 years of Church teaching. Christ is the pearl of great price – sitting on your ass sipping port in your nicey-nice house isn’t. “You are not worthy of Me,” said Christ. In other words, Kozaburo, we should worship Christ and follow Him unless it adversely affects the value of our stock portfolio. Makes me sick.

Hi Damian G,

I like your purpose:

“Basically, my goal is to purge the Earth of all things liberal. First through diplomacy, then by force. I theorise that in the grand scheme of things, that it is truly what Jesus would do.”

Heh, heh.

Chris says it all. The next bishop has to be approved by a majority of other TEC bishops. The game is finished. What’s sad is that Little says he understands what happened to the conscience clause for the traditional orders controversy but he really hopes he’ll get better treatment than they did. As FW Ken’s satire above points out, it won’t work.

Damian G -

Good satire is subtle, but recognizable as such at the end. I wrote with the expectation that those who read it know my opinions, which are the same as yours, except that I am RC, not AC.

Indeed, comparing sexual perversion to race is absurd, but it’s a staple of the homosexualist argument.

should have said:

I WROTE poorly…

that being the point of my last post.

Just wanted to share that we held our first Anglican service this morning at the First Baptist Church in Norwood, Massachusetts. This day has been a long time coming; we left TEc in 2003, spent several years attending a Baptist church, then my husband became a deacon through what is now ACNA last year. He will be ordained a priest in Nov. We use the 1662 service. Hard as it was to leave our parish, I’m so glad we left when we did. I cannot fathom how any Christian can bear to be a part of an organization that has set itself so in opposition to God’s word and work.

“justice” hmmmmmm… So, at this point, no one in TEC can be forced to bless “Whatchamacallit” marriage.. Not under the canons anyway. BUT………. Couldn’t there be secular lawsuits for discrimination, using the “equality-driven” resolutions of the episcopal church?
Just ask’in..

Grandmother

Your attempt to portray yourself as inclusive while being obviously exclusive is somewhat appalliing. First of all, it is “sisters and brothers,” not “brothers and sisters,” an initial mistake which right off the bat revealed your ultra-extreme-rightwing position. But, more importantly, you only promote full sacramental priviliges, including ordination, for your own species. How sad. God created everyone and everything. I, unlike you, look forward to the day that baptized dolphins can swim in the sanctuary and matrimonial blessings can be conferred upon committed, life-long relationships between Kevin and the German Shepherd of his choice. Time to leave the Middle Ages behind, FW Ken.

FW Ken, and here I thought you had developed the 815′s latest mission statement.

Vivien, good luck in your new anglican parish. We have been attending a start-up anglican parish meeting in a home for about 6 months now. Last week nine people, including 5 students, this week only 5, but 2 students. We’re still a ways off from looking for a hall or church for services.

Onward Christian soldiers.

Vivien: “This day has been a long time coming; we left TEc in 2003, spent several years attending a Baptist church, then my husband became a deacon through what is now ACNA last year. He will be ordained a priest in Nov. We use the 1662 service. Hard as it was to leave our parish, I’m so glad we left when we did. I cannot fathom how any Christian can bear to be a part of an organization that has set itself so in opposition to God’s word and work.”

Congratulations Vivien for no longer being an Institutionalist-Enabler of TEc’s soul-destroying heresy and apostasy!!!

It’s so biblical to no longer be de facto yoked, complicit, and morally culpable for TEc’s “opposition to God’s word and work.”

Now that the Dennis Canon is dead, Bishop Little’s parishes need to start shifting allegiance out of TEC into ACNA as fast as they can.

Little’s job is to keep teaching the gospel and hiring faithful clergy who have the vision and the guts to lead one more parish to safety.

Then, when all the sheep are safe, the shepherd can retire on a TEC pension. If I were him, I would then become a parisher at some ACNA parish, but it sounds like he is not open to that.

Don, don’t think I disagree with you. Your comment

“So the bishop will only go so far to serve Christ? And you think this is understandable? And we should accept this? Whatever happened to those who died with the lions rather than deny Christ?”

only serves to illustrate another good reason why married men should not be elected as bishops. Of course, St. Paul laid it all out in 1 Cor 7:33-34:

“But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, and he is divided”

I understand what Edward Little is up against, just as St. Paul did.

The Dennis Canon’s not dead yet. Don’t think the Episcopalians won’t appeal all the way to Washington if they have to.

Christopher Johnson: “… for Northern Indiana Episcopal Bishop Edward Little II. For the love of God, WAKE THE HELL UP!!“

I suppose this wake-up call also applies to all the other Communion Partner Clergy whom de facto agree and behave in the same manner as +Little.

Piskies who think there is a way to maintain conservatism appear to have a half-life or something, such that they’ll never all be gone.

I asked a question above about some filing discrimination lawsuits because TEC now ‘recognizes” the GlBTs etc, to be full participants etc. etc. etc. Funny thing, there was a concience clause about WO… I just ran across this in regard to that subject, I’m almost certain it WILL indeed apply to even the most “orthodox” of “staying” bishops.:
to wit:
*************************
“immediately after the ordination of women passed GC – we were advised by the PBs Chancellor that some day some women could and probably would bring charges of violation of civil rights against persons (whoever was involved) who kept them from being ordained, or considered for jobs simply because they were women.

I think that the women of this church have shown amazing restraint by not bringing those charges. I am sure they could have many times in times past, but for the sake of the institution they refrained, probably.

I write this as a supplement to xxxxxxxxx’s comments. The restraint of the women who have been wronged may wear out. I sense, even now it is wearing kind of thin.
**************

How much “thinner” for tht GLBT’s etc. etc.

Grandmother

I respect Bishop Little. But for the life of me, I cannot see the point of remaining in a “church” as hostile to the orthodox as Bishop Little acknowledges.

It boggles the mind how any conservative in TEC can believe that effective evangelism can be done as a church within TEC. Only the most radical low church evangelicalism could do it without crossing any fingers.

Wannabe,

It’s as simple as I said. ‘Bishop’ is Little’s job title. If he leaves TEC his new job title becomes ‘clerk’ or ‘salesman’. Do you think Mrs Little is going to stand for that? And what of his kids? No more college! He’s trapped like the rest of them. They’re putting their families first, like responsible conservatives.

He’s deluding himself because he has no other choice.

Christopher Hathaway: “It boggles the mind how any conservative in TEC can believe that effective evangelism can be done as a church within TEC. Only the most radical low church evangelicalism could do it without crossing any fingers.”

Can you say “Sarah Hey”?

And I suppose conservative Anglo-Catholics do it by crossing their fingers?

Kozaburo, this bishop was married in 1968 and ordained in 1971. It seems unlikely that he has children still in college.

Ordained in ’71, he’s probably eligible for retirement. In any case, there’s no point in speculating on his motives, which we don’t know. It’s enough that he’s fooling himself on the future of classic Christianity in TEC.

Piskies who think there is a way to maintain conservatism appear to have a half-life or something, such that they’ll never all be gone.

And in the end, they’ll be backgroud radiation and nothing more.

This “Third Way”™ thingy must be an Anglican trait. Dualism is so passé, there must be a Third Way! I begin to see the appeal of Kevin “Genpo” Thew Forrester.

Heaven – Hell : Hmm, the Roman Catholics came up with Purgatory.

Sin – Not Sin : The Episcopalians came up with the Batismal Covenant

Stay – leave : This is Little’s conundrum. He knows he should go, but just cannot bring himself to do it. This is where the Third Wayers are now. They are trying to leave without leaving, or stay without going with the flow.

Be a Christian – Don’t be a Christian: surely there must be some Third Way!

The issue is that we live in a world, created by a God who gave us two choices: Life vs Death – see Deut 30:15-20.

This vaunted “Third Way” is nothing more than an attempt to avoid the real issue – whom will you serve?

That would be Baptismal Covenant above. Sheesh! No wonder I never sound profound….

Allen Lewis: “He knows he should go, but just cannot bring himself to do it. This is where the Third Wayers are now. They are trying to leave without leaving, or stay without going with the flow.”

Can you say “Sarah Hey”?

Mr. Lewis –

Purgatory isn’t so much a “third place”, but a process of cleansing (“purgation”)) that fits us to enter the presence of God. Current Catholic thought sometimes refers to it as “the ante-room of Heaven”. If you prefer, C.S. Lewis, in The Great Divorce makes purgatory the same place as hell, though temporary (it’s hell if you stay, purgatory if you leave).

As in all matters spiritual, it’s possible to overplay the “placeness” of it all. And lest we emulate the gnostics, it’s possible to underplay it as well.

And I suppose conservative Anglo-Catholics do it by crossing their fingers?

TUAD,
I believe they do it by crossing their eyes.

it’s hell if you stay, purgatory if you leave

I was worried that we were going to get into a side discussion of Catholic doctrine on post-mortem sanctification, but I can see you brought it back to the issue of conservatives in TEC. Well done!

Christopher Hathaway – If you don’t care for Ken’s comment, ban him from commenting.

Wrong site, Mark. I think you want Stand Firm or T1.9.

Actually, I thought Christopher Hathaway’s comment was the funniest I’ve seen in awhile. I have been so earnest lately, I’m making myself sick.

Truly, I was trying to avoid a specifically Catholic pigtrail by keeping C.S. Lewis in the mix. My point is that purgatory isn’t a third anything, but intrinsic to our salvation.

Mark, Ken read me right. I had no problem with his comment. I just couldn’t resist using the part I quoted to apply to the thread subject at hand. It seemed so fitting.

About Lewis’ Great Divorce and Purgatory: it seems to me that one problem with trying to see where Purgatory fits in that story is that Purgatory, which Lewis believed in, is not a place where one finally decides to go to heaven but where one completes the necessary work to make the journey decided upon earlier in life. But Lewis himself admitted that his story should not be taken as a precise theological description of Heaven and hell, et al. I think it was really meant to describe the descent into hell, to use the title of another Inkling’s book, undergone in this life.