ROMAN CATHOLICS?

Thursday, May 8th, 2014 | Uncategorized

Here’s the deal.  I really don’t want to hear any more about how, when England goes Catholic again, you’d like your cathedrals back.  Considering the Catholic-Anglican exchange over the years, you guys owe us a cathedral or two (I’ll take St. Louis’ Cathedral Basilica and call everything square).  There’s been another sighting of this guy:

Norman Carroll says he is an Episcopal deacon today rather than a Roman Catholic one — as he had been for nearly 35 years — largely because he had a one-on-one conversation on Feb. 26, 2013, with a man who insisted that Carroll state his personal view on the Catholic church’s doctrine on the ordination of women.

Carroll told the man he felt the church had the authority to ordain women and that Pope John Paul II’s apostolic teaching on the ordination of women was not infallible.

I’m thinking about the NFL draft tonight (so far, so good for my Rams) and you can write the rest of this yourself anyway so I’m taking the rest of this post off.  But I did want to call your attention to the way this guy describes himself.

I believe I have always been orthodox as well as updated.

Yup.  Sounds like a great fit.

41 Comments to ROMAN CATHOLICS?

FW Ken
May 8, 2014

You can have the basilica. I like the Old Cathedral.

Abp. Wenski is not Abp. Favarola. Thank goodness.

Daniel Muller
May 8, 2014

So he is an “Episcopal deacon” within two months of jumping? Although I believe it possible considering that he is in Miami, I think that it was interesting that no actual Episcopalian was harmed in the filming of this story.

I did notice that his pastor, who did not recall “anything out of the ordinary,” was an Oblate of Mary Immaculate.

I am not familiar with the Archdiocese of Miami’s diaconal formation program at all, but I would bet that his studies in the late 1970′s were minimal. I would not be surprised if he were genuinely confused about why there have been complaints.

I also would not be surprised if there is a whole lot more to this story — besides any official Episcopalian statement — than he is pouring into sympathetic ears. I have never seen such a strong written rebuke by a bishop.

P.S. That cathedral basilica has been on my must-see list for years now.

Christopher Johnson
May 8, 2014

Draw up the papers, Ken. This town’s Catholics can attend late-morning Mass at the Old Cathedral and then can have breakfast/brunch/lunch at the floating McDonald’s on our river front.

There are probably other US cities that share this distinction but St. Louis is actually home to two Roman Catholic cathedrals. If you’re ever there on a Wednesday, drop by for lunch. I’ve heard that meal kicks ass.

The young fogey
May 8, 2014

The moral of the story: the only people in the church pushing women’s ordination are old cranks like this 81-year-old, heading for oblivion like the Episcopalians and the rest of the mainline. Most of the time here, it just doesn’t come up. My semi-trad parish is largely people in their 30s with lots of kids.

Truth Unites... and Divides
May 8, 2014

“The deacon in spouting off on ways to reject the guidance of the Church in the formation of one’s conscience was basically talking out of his depth and obviously beyond his competence,” Wenski wrote.

He added, “I can appreciate the intemperate remarks of a deacon would cause you and others some scandal. I would hope that you would not confuse what he said with church teaching and therefore not allow his personal opinions to undermine your Catholic faith.”

Hip, hip hooray for Archbishop Wenski!!

trespinos
May 8, 2014

I’m not so sure he was clueless due to poor formation. Otherwise, why would “to request such of me when my pastors of 27 years and untold numbers of parishioners applaud my didactic and homiletic efforts… I believe I have always been orthodox as well as updated” summon up these wonderful lyrics for me: “They wouldn’t listen to the fact / that I was a genius / The man said, “We got all that we can use” (pace Jim C.)

Rondon
May 9, 2014

Chris,
Pittsburgh is another city with two Catholic cathedrals.

http://stpaulpgh.org/

http://www.stjohnsbyzantinecathedral.com/cathedral

Also, congrats to the Rams on getting Pitt’s Aaron Donald. He’s a talented, and by all acounts, a really fine young man.

LaVallette
May 9, 2014

What do you know: another of them “Spirit of Vatican II” types, who in their pride believe they are more infallible than the Popes and can tell them where to get off.

Christopher Johnson
May 9, 2014

Thanks, Rondon, that’s interesting to know. I like our draft so far. Who’d your boys end up with?

DM? It’s worth a trip here for the mosaics alone.

unreconstructed rebel
May 9, 2014

I am currently worshiping with a denomination that does not ordain women. The place is crawling with young families & kids. We laugh that the average age of the congregation is 16. Typical family: Two young parents with two kids, often more. Do the math. There are not enough old farts like me to budge the 16 year average age.

I am with The Young Fogey. This whole WO thing is a passing fancy of the 60s generation.

Katherine
May 9, 2014

Isn’t Miami the Episcopal diocese that took Fr. Cutié? Par for the course. C’mon over and bring your ordination with you. No questions asked!

Geosez
May 9, 2014

Rondon/Chris: Ditto re our Greg Robinson – on the field talent, off the field good guy. Just hope the NFL doesn’t ruin that.

Fuinseoig
May 9, 2014

Christopher, if you guys take the cathedrals in California (please!), I’ll consider everything from Henry II getting the only English pope to issue the bull Laudabiliter on down to be square between Catholics and Anglicans :-)

I thought the Los Angeles cathedral of Our Lady Queen of Angels was bad, then I saw the cathedral of the Assumption for San Francisco. What the heck were the architects of the time thinking?

St Louis looks like it has a beautiful basilica. That’s the French influence, of course.

;-)

Fuinseoig
May 9, 2014

Yeah, I know Henry II was Catholic, but he was an Anglo-Norman who used the excuse of the Irish being ignorant savages who were little better than pagans and had no knowledge of their religion to have himself proclaimed as Lord of Ireland.

I will also note that the only witch-burning in Ireland took place under the revised Norman hierarchy, not the native Irish clergy who adhered to the relaxed mediaeval attitude, which was also the more traditional attitude of the Church, that there weren’t witches per se, just deluded people who claimed the aid of the Devil – since God has conquered the Devil, witchcraft was a snare and a delusion but had no real power.

So revision: I’ll consider everything between the Irish and the English on matters of religion square if you take those eyesores off our hands.

:-)

William Tighe
May 9, 2014

Baltimore, also, has two Catholic cathedrals: the old downtown basilica, and a cement construction out by the beltway built in the 60s (the latter was built because it was a condition of a large bequest left to the archdiocese that it build a new cathedral).

Fuinseiog, you would do well to read this book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Enforcing-English-Reformation-Ireland-Resistance/dp/0521369940/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1399642626&sr=1-1&keywords=murray+enforcing+the+english+reformation

which argues that the “spark” for opposition to the Reformation in Ireland (both Henry’s reformation and, later, Elizabeth’s) was opposition to it among the Palesmen, and especially its legal and clerical elite, and that it only spread slowly to Gaeldom (in the late 1560s and early 70s).

Jedinovice
May 9, 2014

Actually, as a roaming cat lick, I actually do not like ornate churchs! Many people enter a huge catherdral and feel the transcendent glory of God.

Fair enough.

Trns me cold, mind. But then, when I saw some of those awful all glass, 22nd Century, white washed halls I shudder as well.

Simple. At a 10th Century mud hut of a chapel I could pray easiest.

I like simple. I am at my most attentive in a simple Mass, no Latin, no singing, where I can *think!* I can’t find that in Indonesia. One, there is language gap and two, they sing everything!!! Smells, bells, gongs… the works! Indonesians are a very sombre people.

But, to each their own.

Just saying.

Mike
May 9, 2014

Young Fogey, I think you’ve nailed it. And his picture aptly cries out for the caption, “It’s all about ME!”

Lina
May 9, 2014

I really liked Sagrada Familia in Barcelona.

SouthCoast
May 9, 2014

Carroll and John: separated at birth!

FW Ken
May 9, 2014

Jedinovice,

You would probably like some of the Cistercian/Trappist Abbey Churches. Traditional Cistercian architecture creates beauty with form and scale rather than decoration. Even their griselle glass, well done, generates peace and serenity. One of the most prayerful places I’ve ever been is the Abbey Church at Mepkin. It’s of modern design, but very … well… prayerful.

The New Cathedral (basilica built in 1913, I think) may be French on the outside, but the interior is pure byzantine. Every square inch of wall and ceiling is covered with mosaics. That’s too much visual stimulation for me, which is why I like the Old Cathedral.

Ed the Roman
May 9, 2014

The Anglicans have considered our orders valid since forever. If you think about it, they kind of have to.

Katherine
May 9, 2014

Yes, Ed, of course, but in Miami they’ve been ready to take Catholics without any questions about the circumstances, which says something about Miami and ECUSA. It was the same with the now-deceased guy KJS accepted out in Nevada. If ECUSA were a serious church it would have some standards to be met and inquiries to be made and a process to follow.

Whitestone
May 9, 2014

Here’s a Trappist sanctuary near Conyers, Georgia that is certainly a place of prayer. Completely built by the monks, the majority of the windows are blue, but those near the Altar are yellow. The effect is splendid golden light reflective of the Glory of God.

Fr. Russ
May 9, 2014

One of my priest mentors after I swam the Tibre called those of this deacon’s ilk, “Vatican III”.

They thought WO, and a whole host of other Lib. Prot. innovations were just around the corner.

goddessoftheclassroom
May 9, 2014

I was received into the Russian Orthodox Church a little over a year ago. We life the belief that Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. My heart is finally healing from its break caused by the Episcopal Church’s final lurch into irrelevancy.

FW Ken
May 9, 2014

I spent a lot of time with the brothers at Conyers back in the 90s. The effects of the golden glass in the apse is incredible when you sit back in the blue lit nave.

Fr. Fred Ayers
May 9, 2014

The article says Carroll “joined St. Benedict’s Episcopal Church in Plantation, Fla.” Someone in holy orders does not simply join a parish. He must be received by the bishop if he wishes to come into the Episcopal Church as a deacon or priest from the Roman Catholic Church. There is no mention of an Episcopal bishop receiving him and licensing him to minister in the Diocese–and it is a strange omission that there is no reference to his being received by, nor is there a quote from, the Episcopal bishop of Southeast Florida. So either the article is incomplete or else this fellow may only THINK he is now an Episcopal deacon. We may be watching a case of senility in action. Although, given his apparent disregard for the Canons as well as sound theology, he should be right at home in TEC.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
May 9, 2014

If Rondon is going to push the envelope, then St. Louis Catholics have THREE cathedrals, but one is only honorary and is referred to as a cathedral only because St. Louisan’s are so fixated on their past that they can’t change a damn thing!

Christopher Johnson
May 9, 2014

Fuinseoig? Counter-offer. We get St. Louis’ Cathedral Basilica and we’ll take LA off your hands (damned thing looks like a community college). But you have to take St. John the Divine and the NatCat. :-)

Jedinovice
May 9, 2014

Hi Ken,

You maybe right. I cannot put my finger on what it is but, yes, too much audio/visual stimulation and I get overloaded. But sterile does not suit me either. Those bare Baptist halls leave me cold too. I kind of think that, while God can be met anywhere bar Hell, he deserves something more than a school dining room.

I did like the churches in the Philippines. hey were colourful, bright, pleasing, with icons and statues but it was comforting and ornate without bring grandiose. Places of prayer but God was close, not transcendent.

I really wish I had made it to the small islands. :-)

FW Ken
May 9, 2014

I heard Mass at St. Josephat’s Basilica in Milwaukee once. Way too visual, but the choir was glorious.

http://www.thebasilica.org/

And all NatCath and St John’s need are good exorcisms and the Christian religion. Us Catlicks can provide both.

Lina
May 9, 2014

I have had the privilege of worshiping God in places which range from very ornate to very humble. I can remember one time entering a church building and thinking that this is the ugliest church building I have ever been in. However God taught me a lesson that day: the presence or lack there of of His Holy Spirit makes all the difference in the world. Worshiping in that humble ugly building was joyful and transforming. God was present in His people and in their hearts. I loved that place!

Don Janousek
May 10, 2014

I, too, prefer the Old Cathedral. The notorious Archbishop May ruined the New Cathedral on Lindell with those ghastly cartoon frescoes in put on two of the ceilings Awful stuff. But then, so was May. He deserves a “Hoowah” from me in contributing to my decision to leave the Vatican II cult for Russian Orthodoxy.

Anyway, if I recall correctly, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, under Ratzinger, confirmed the statement by John Paul II that the Church has no authority to ordain women in the following statement:

” The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith clarified the authority of this teaching by stating that it is founded on the written Word of God, has been constantly preserved and applied in the Tradition of the Church, and has been set forth infallibly by the universal ordinary magisterium.”

I believe this probably carries a bit more theological weight than what “Deacon” Carroll “felt.”

He should feel right at home in the episcopo/anglican cult.

Fuinseoig
May 10, 2014

Dr Tighe, I can well believe it. The attitude amongst the clansmen was basically “Pffft! What do we care if the English are quarrelling amongst themselves over their king and him putting new bishops in for them?”, since they didn’t accept the claims of Henry’s lordship over Ireland (unless it was politically convenient in a dispute with a fellow chieftain to go running off to the Pale and swearing allegiance, getting government support in the form of arms and/or troops, and returning home to defeat their rival and then continue on as before).

They didn’t see much of a difference between the “Old English” (the Anglo-Norman/Norman-Irish/Anglo-Irish colonists and settlers) and the “New English” (the ones who started coming over, first with Henry’s reforms and then in greater numbers for Elizabeth’s plantations) until the latter started making serious efforts to impose government rule (including both civil and religious authority).

And of course, there was the likes of the gentleman I’ve often mentioned on here before: Myler McGrath, who played both ends against the middle (for instance, he managed to be simultaneously Roman Catholic bishop of Down and Anglican Archbishop of Cashel, thanks to some judicious conversion and the long time it took for news to reach the Continent and be acted upon).

Fuinseoig
May 10, 2014

Christopher, I have always had a fondness for the Apostle John (as I get older, I appreciate St Peter more) and so I’d be happy to get a church dedicated to him and make it a proper church.

:-)

The National Cathedral? Isn’t that the place falling down because of the earthquakes? Then again, if the Diocese of Orange could take over the Crystal Cathedral, they probably have experience of managing buildings in earthquake zones.

;-)

The Little Myrmidon
May 10, 2014

So, is “cathedral-bashing” a game that any number can play? I also vote for St. Mary of the Assumption in San Francisco, although the cathedral in LA is pretty ugly (looks like a 60′s era office building.)

Here in MA, the Episcopal Cathedral of St. Paul now no longer has a plain pediment. They just added a controversial “nautilus” meant to suggest a church that’s “growing.” Yeah. Right.

The Little Myrmidon
May 10, 2014

St. Paul’s in Boston (the Episcopal Cathedral church) has a new Name of Linkmotif. So, they’re right up there in the ugly churches competition.

The Little Myrmidon
May 10, 2014

Let’s try that again: St. Paul’s in Boston (the Episcopal Cathedral church) has a new motif So, they’re right up there in the ugly churches competition.

Richard M
May 12, 2014

“You can have the basilica. I like the Old Cathedral.”

With all respect, speak for yourself. I like them both, but St. Louis is rivaled only by St. Paul for the finest American Catholic basilica on active duty.

“Abp. Wenski is not Abp. Favarola. Thank goodness.”

And I don’t envy Wenski having to clean up after the latter.

dominic1955
May 12, 2014

“I, too, prefer the Old Cathedral. The notorious Archbishop May ruined the New Cathedral on Lindell with those ghastly cartoon frescoes in put on two of the ceilings Awful stuff. But then, so was May. He deserves a “Hoowah” from me in contributing to my decision to leave the Vatican II cult for Russian Orthodoxy.”

Exactly, that’s the first thing I noticed (once I got far enough in) when I first visited the “New” Cathedral in St. Louis-those absolutely gawdawful pastel cartoons. Nasty, and doesn’t fit in the rest of the design at all. Maybe they aren’t terrible in a different setting, but they just clash so badly with the rest of it.

Plus I got a chuckled out of the one that says, “Christ has not risen, your faith is vain” if you look at it at the wrong angle.

dominic1955
May 12, 2014

Other than that, I liked the “New” Cathedral but I guess it just didn’t impress me THAT much. Too much going on, too much clashing style (the cartoons aren’t the only part that clashed) and the “renovation” that mucked up the sanctuary. Its certainly grand, but I preferred the “Cathedral” of South Saint Louis-St. Francis de Sales.

The Old Cathdral was certainly nice, but they need to restore it a bit, which I think they are in the process of doing.

As far as American cathedrals go, I have to put in a word for St. Cecelia’s in Omaha. Its of pretty large scale but doesn’t overdo it with decor. It does a good job of being grand and peaceful at the same time.

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