EPISCOPAL LEXICON

Sunday, May 24th, 2009 | Uncategorized

Listening – when an Episcopalian tells you what to think and you keep your stupid, ignorant, bigoted opinion to yourself.  As illustrated by Ms. Susan Gage of Tallahassee, Florida:

I think listening is a good thing. Whether or not anyone is actually hearing is quite another matter. There’s been so much talk, talk, talk, talk, talk… and we’ve listened, listened, and listened again. But I’m not convinced that anyone is really hearing the bottom line: God is calling God’s gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered people back into the church. If there are bishops in the world who don’t know how to minister to LGBT people, then it would seem some help is needed there. And if there are LGBT people whom God is calling to become leaders, then who are we… or they… to stand in the way of God?

Along with Terry Milner of New York City:

So long as church leaders such as Bishop Mouneer insist on reminding us that they will never change their minds on the ultimate question of full inclusion, why would any gay or lesbian person in his region think it will ever be “safe” to participate in the process?

That said, I learned a lot from Bishop Mouneer’s comments on the difficulty of carrying out the listening process in regions where same-gender relationships are still proscribed socially, legally and morally. I could just as easily have been reading about the American South. Those of us who were raised in that environment rejected any involvement with organized Christianity until the Episcopal Church began welcoming us back into the church, and gave us a safe place to speak about our experience as gay men and lesbians, and how we reconcile it with our faith. I urge those planning the next phase of the “listening process” to consider our experience and consult those who share it.

It seems to me that many of those fearful of coming forward in their own countries could be provided with the technological means to record their experiences anonymously, using cell phone or internet tools where they are available. And Canon Groves’ group could work to create “safe spaces” where this listening could be safely carried out, either in person or by using those technologies. That would be an excellent use of the funds the group has received, and could create a compelling record of experiences for those of good will on both sides to consider.

And confirmed by the Rev. Robert W. Walden of Kaneohe, Hawaii.

I have been listening very closely and I am not encouraged by what I am hearing. I hear a lot of anger and not much of a desire to listen from the homosexuals. Most seem to be only interested in their own views and no one else’s. They come across very militant and unforgiving and vengeful. Listening for those supporting the homosexuals seems to mean that they do not need to listen to the opposition because if you do not agree with me then it is because you are not listening to me. This does not reflect Jesus’ love and forgiveness.

34 Comments to EPISCOPAL LEXICON

Sasha
May 24, 2009

How right you are, Mr. Christopher Johnson!!!

These sodomites and sexual idolaters are NOT seeking simple acceptance – they want POWER, TOTAL DOMINION over everybody else and the PROSCRIPTION OF ALL who disagree with them!! Even when they pretend to be your friends, they’re quite prepared to hurt you and even behind your back more than enough other people!

In fact, it’s time to END all this “listening-process” GARBAGE!! It’s theirs to accept Jesus (as the rest of us likewise are in fact obliged on His terms, NOT ours!!! Jesus did seek out the outcast and unfortunate in good part because He – as God – Knew that such people who didn’t and don’t do so well in this world were/are more open to His Message than those who worship the world and its riches, concepts, “Zeitgeist”, etc.

THERE, in a nutshell, is their fallacy!!! Ultimately, one believes and accepts God on His Terms – or one doesn’t!!!

Sorry to be repeating the obvious; however, enough times people miss it in the first place to begin with!

goddessoftheclassroom
May 24, 2009

Sasha, you took the words out of my mouth.

This is one of the reasons that I’m now an Anglican. We cannot rewrite Scripture to suit ourselves. We accept it or we don’t. Those who would revise it are not those I will follow.

TLDillon
May 24, 2009

“God is calling God’s gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered people back into the church.”

When were they ever in the Church? Did I miss some history somewhere in the Bible?

“…and how we reconcile it with our faith.”

Just how does one reconcile sin with their faith exactly so that God does not recognize it as sin?

No wiser and true words spoken than by Rev. Robert W. Walden of Kaneohe, Hawaii in the last paragraph.

Michael D
May 24, 2009

I agree “God is calling God’s gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered people back into the church.” Unfortunately when they get there they often do not hear the gospel, nor are they called (as we all are) to repentance from sin and hope for healing.

The Episcopal Church has largely turned away from loving ministry to the GLBT community and opted instead for the unloving and destructive option of telling them that sin is a sacrament.

Christopher Hathaway
May 24, 2009

It is a wicked dilemna I face. I can’t stomach such Episcopal drivel without the aid of strong drink. Yet such quantities as make it bearable also rob me of the discretion necessary to make an appropriate rejoinder. Such drink as to make their comments enjoyable as amusement also rob me of motivation. I simply don’t give a rat’s hindquarters.

Dusty sandals. Shaken, not stirred.

J.M. Heinrichs
May 24, 2009

Next they’ll claim Wagner’s Ring Cycle is not just genuine Germanic folklore.

Cheers

FW Ken
May 24, 2009

More Episcopalians who don’t check their minds at the door. And don’t need to, since it fits comfortably in their shirt pockets.

I know, I’ve made that joke before, but it just demands saying.

Perpetua
May 24, 2009

Rev. Robert W. Walden of Kaneohe, Hawaii gets it.

dwstroudmd
May 24, 2009

Apparently, when the answer is “NO” these sorts of folks are not into listening as much as they claim to be. Perpetua is quite correct that the Rev. Robert W. Walden of Kaneohe, Hawaii, gets it. The others, not so much.

Sasha
May 24, 2009

Ouch, Mr. J.M. Heinrichs!!! That hurts a little – after all, while not really cognisant of the Volsungasaga, Nibelungenlied and Icelandic and other Edda that served as Richard Wagner’s source material, as a musician (and a Wagner-liker, not quite a lover but who realises how much classical music owes to him and his influence willy-nilly!…) nevertheless knows well how Wagner was genuinely seeking to go back to pre-Christian Germany and Scandinavia.

When the Commies and their offspring start doing what you’ve suggested, we’ll really then realise even more just how much we’re in the soup!!

Katherine
May 24, 2009

What Terry Milner doesn’t realize is that the Egyptian government monitors the internet for pornography and anything it considers seditious. Were I, sitting here on an Egyptian IP, to access pornography, for instance, I could expect police knocking down my door and taking me to a nasty prison. Homosexual reminiscences would definitely fit in this category; it’s illegal here.

For that matter, while Bishop Mouneer is allowed to operate openly as a Christian, anyone who wants to convert from Islam is NOT. There is a pending case of a Muslim man who has converted (to the Coptic Church, I believe) and wants his official ID card changed. The case is still undecided, and his life has been threatened to the extent that he required protection for his court appearance. If his relatives find him, he’ll be dead. The good bishop, who is a medical doctor, could try to assist same-sex-attracted people in the sense of counseling. He could not do what Milner suggests in Egypt.

PNP, OP
May 25, 2009

As a liberal member of my Episcopal diocese’s Commission on Human Sexuality back in the 80′s, I strongly preached the need for the throwbacks to listen. So did all the other liberal members of the commission. In private, the four libs on the commission freely talked about the “listening strategy” as a way of keeping the throwbacks occupied while we changed the tradition. There was no doubt in our minds that “dialogue,” “listening,” etc. were just political strategies designed to hide our agenda. We made no apologies among ourselves for this deception. We were right; they were wrong. By any means necessary, we would change the church’s practices and damn the consequences.

Unfortunately, the consequences have been quite damning.

Fr. Philip, OP

KC
May 25, 2009

there is a reason why over half of the members of St. Johns in Tallahassee literally got up and walked out the door a couple of years ago…but I am assuming Ms Gage does not think God was calling them…

TLDillon
May 25, 2009

Fr. Phillip,
I am so very sad for you. For the damning will not be over for a long time and thus God will do His final justice one day and I will pray for you and those who set out to willingly deceive good people whom God loves as much as He loves you, to further your own will and not God’s will. You and those who engaged in your deceit have brought great harm to God’s Church and His wrath is far worse than mans.

Allen Lewis
May 25, 2009

The remarks of Ms. Gage and Mr. Milner are so typical of the modern Episcopalian in the US. They are convinced that they are right and anyone who disagrees with them is not “listening” and is a bigtoed, knucle-dragging fundamentalist, Nazi. So there!

And that is about the level of “sacred dialogue” that goes on in any meeting to discuss the issues of the day. It is a total waste of time to try to reason with these sorts of people, because reason is not something they recognize. In order to reason properly, one must have a concept of what Truth is and must be willing to acknowledge this Truth once it is arrived at by reasonable means.

That means that if your idea or program turns out to be mistaken after reasonable analysis is applied, then you are obliged to acknowledge that mistake and abandon it. This is not something that modern Episcopalians do. They have “their truth” and you have “your truth”; and while they claim that all truth is relative and that there is no such thing as “Absolute Truth”, they will tell you that “their truth” is the correct one and you are just to dumb, blind and bigotted to see that “your truth” is, in fact, an error.

Ain’t modern epistemology fun!

Paula Loughlin
May 25, 2009

I may be expressing my ignorance, but I am fairly certain that Father Philip is speaking of his past and that he has fully repented of those actions.

Some of us did fall for the poisoned apples of Liberalism both politically and religiously. We know first hand the damage it did to ourselves and the damage it contributed to others. Maybe that is why we are now so vigilant in exposing its lies.

Christopher Johnson
May 25, 2009

The guy what runs this site amongst ‘em, Paula, at least politically. I was quite the anti-warrior back when Vietnam was still going on.

TLDillon
May 25, 2009

Well, Paula he did not state that and if he has then it would be nice to know because not all of us have the inside knowledge as you seem to. If I had been in his shoes I would have a least for those reading who do not know me, who have stated that I had and still do regret and repent of my actions but I did not read that in his statement anywhere. Sorry!

Smurf Breath
May 25, 2009

They have “their truth” and you have “your truth”; and while they claim that all truth is relative and that there is no such thing as “Absolute Truth”, they will tell you that “their truth” is the correct one and you are just to dumb, blind and bigotted to see that “your truth” is, in fact, an error

Allen Lewis, a good site that deals with the issues you raise is http://www.str.org (Greg Koukl). I’ve never seen anyone so adept at slicing through the PoMo blather as he, exposing the underlying incoherence and hypocrisy.

The Little Myrmidon
May 25, 2009

“God is calling God’s gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered people back into the church.”

When were they ever in the Church? Did I miss some history somewhere in the Bible?

I must disagree with you, TL. The church has always had people prone to GLBT tendencies. They have always been “in the church.” The only difference is they used to remain celibate if in holy orders and if not, they married and kept their proclivities to themselves. The priesthood and monastic orders have always drawn those who felt they couldn’t marry in the conventional manner.

The difference is in recognising that this is sin. TEC wants us all to acknowledge GLBT acts as holy.

TLDillon
May 25, 2009

The Little Myrmidon,
You are not necessarily disagreeing with me. I never said that they weren’t in the Church. I am saying if you read it again, I am asking when were homosexuals and lesbians in the bible accounts in positive manners and stories? No where. I would never argue that LGBT ans all sinners of all stripes need to be in church but I don’t think that they should be the Church, i.e. priests, deacons, bishops, unless they are proven to be celibate and are not continually preaching that homosex is blessed and holy.

If you knew that a pedophile had repented and turned to God would you be okay with him wearing a collar or being a leader in your church. To me homosex is no different then the desire to have sex with a child. Both are disordered but they have their preference of how their desires get met. Just like an adulterous man who for some reason cannot commit to one woman and be faithful. he has a sexual disorder. Would you be okay if he was in the church as a priest or a deacon or in a leadership role? Why is one more tolerable than any other?

PNP, OP
May 25, 2009

TLDillion,

Just to be clear: I no longer hold those views. I have embraced the Catholic faith 1000%, first, by leaving the TEO and then returning to Rome.

My involvement in that deceit long ago has been a constant reminder to me of how easy it is for me to fall victim to the temptations of trendy ideas and half-baked theologies–a temptation I preach against in my own Church on a daily basis.

Thank God for His mercy!

Fr. Philip, OP

TLDillon
May 25, 2009

By the way The Little Myrmidon I agree with you about that eh church has always had people prone to homosexuals tendencies the whole world besides the Church has had them and continues to have them. I guess since the Church is not suppose to be of this world but is supposed to be a witness in it I expect more from Her in her status of the Bride to the Bride Groom and not elevate to the priesthood, or being a deacon or a Bishops or bless those who are in homosexual relationships or lesbian relationships or bi-sexual relationships any more than they should those who have committed adultery in divorce and remarriage or who are single and practice promiscuity. We as a Church have let our morals from the Word slip because we continue to reinterpret the Word to help us feel better about ourselves and our sins. May God forgive us all and have mercy on us all.

TLDillon
May 25, 2009

Fr. Phillip, Thank you for clarifying and may I offer my apologies. However I did not know your status nor your affiliation. God has enlightened you and brought you home to fulfill His call upon your life and you are a much wiser man for heeding to His call and His correction. I pray the same for all of us before we leave this earth.

May our Lord Jesus Christ keep you and give you the wisdom and strength to live out your life in His service doing His will.

God’s Blessings
TL Dillon

Paula Loughlin
May 25, 2009

God is indeed merciful and part of that mercy is the calling sinners to Church. Not so that they may remain in sin and declare their sin a god. But so that they may be moved by the Cross to reject the way of death and embrace new life in Christ.

The road to hell is not only paved with good intentions it is paved with nice. It says a lot about what moral cowards we are when we would rather see a soul in hell than risk being thought not nice. Well after a while the nice that was done so a person would feel more welcomed starts failing to distinguish between that person and his sin. Then we start accepting the sin, either downplaying it or refusing to call it sin all together. All in the name of niceness. Can you imagine an AA meeting where no one dared mention that maybe drinking might be a problem cause it might seem mean to a struggling alcoholic? Or a doctor who refused to mention his diabetic patient should not scarf down 6 doughnuts a day? Or a teacher who claimed every answer was a right answer? (oh wait that may already be going on).

Sure it is non confrontational but it also damns a person to a life lived in defeat.

Dale Matson
May 25, 2009

“From Albert Feix III • Palm Springs, California, May 23, 2009 I can’t help but consider that the Anglican Consultative Counsel is in error and promoting a covenant that would, at the most, classify gay/lesbian Episcopalians as second class children of God.”
In case anyone hasn’t figured it out by now, the GLBT folks have decided that the Covenant is anti Gay. Do you think that it has even a ghost of a chance to be ratified by TEC in its present form or for that matter, in any form?

The Little Myrmidon
May 25, 2009

TL, I agree with you. Thanks for expanding on your comments.

AnglicanXn
May 25, 2009

I remember when our diocese (like many others) set out to have “dialogue” on the issue of homosexuality. I thought that was a good thing – a good, serious, discussion might well help people to understand one another, and of course if the Bible had a place in it, the Bible’s word on sex would be seen to be good and reasonable.

Was I ever wrong! The deck was stacked for the revisionists both in terms of methodology and in content. It was pro-same sex blessedness all the way.

I was honest and I thought that they would be as well. No such luck.

Allen Lewis
May 25, 2009

AnglicanXn -
You have learned a valuable lesson. There is nothing honest or decent about the way revisionists manipulate people, meetings, and events to suit their purposes. Since the Truth is not in them, they are not interested in the truth.

They will lie, cheat, whine, threaten and do whatever it takes to get their way and to shut down any and all opposition.

As Paula Loughlin points out in a previous post, we cannot afford to be “nice” to these people. They are the Devils henchmen, whether willing or not and they can do a lot of damage.

Todd
May 26, 2009

Allen Lewis is exactly right. The biggest mistake too many orthodox folks made for too long was believing that the revisionists were acting in good faith in trying to broker the GLBT agenda into TEO. In fact the revisionists are simply hard core secular progressives dressed up in church garb. Like all secular progressives, they are relentless and have no intention of debating the issues in good faith. These are the people who charge conversatives with trying to impose their values on society while they, the progressives, are actually doing it by all methods fair or foul. As Fr. Philip candidly admits, the progressives use debate, negotiations and listening as tactical maneuvers, not to seriously engage the orthodox in substantive dialogue. They have not swerved from their path in three or four decades, and they have not yielded one inch of their territory. The result is TEO is no longer recognizably Christian. Any lingering vestiges of the traditional faith will be extirpated at this year’s GenCon.

IB Bill
May 26, 2009

About 15 years ago, I attended, at the invitation of a friend, one of these “listening” sessions. In the course of two hours, I recognized what these folks were up to — the session was all pretense, and their concern was not to investigate biblical teaching on sexuality, but only to change the Episcopal Church’s teaching, as if homosexuality teaching were a political matter up to the church hierarchy … and not about obeying God.

I was surprised that the attendees would not fear God, and made a mental note to keep an eye on these folks, lest they actually gain power. And sure enough, 10 years later, they actually succeeded, at least for the time being.

Whitestone
May 26, 2009

“They have not swerved from their path in three or four decades, and they have not yielded one inch of their territory.”

NO – it was we, the ‘orthodox’ who gave all the ground, compromised God’s standards, lacked courage of our convictions, didn’t know how to love with tough love, lacked the knowledge (intimate relationship with) of Jesus and the truth, and a few maybe had some hidden sins of their own so they didn’t feel like standing firm for holiness, Truth and Love and Life.

We were ashamed to quote Scriptures, or had not learned them…

Jesus said, ‘If you love me, you will keep my commandments.’ We just didn’t love Him…or know Him enough.

GA/FL
May 26, 2009

In the Listening (TM) sessions in 2003, in the Dio of GA prior to the desecration of NH with the installation of VGR, no one was allowed to use Scripture in the Dialogue (TM). None.

just another gay guy
July 25, 2009

So when’s the next inquisition?

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