Three loud and raucous cheers of “Hip, Hip, Hooray!!” for Bishop Robert Vasa.

“Strict interpretation” vs. a “tolerant approach”.

Yeah, ok, moving right along.

In all seriousness, I don’t expect the nurse changing my IV to be a model of living; a teacher is another kind of creature all together. So I’m less concerned about hiring practices at hospitals. As long as someone isn’t actively campaigning against the Catholic Faith, I’d be more concerned about what medical procedures were performed in the hospital.

“But some teachers fear the addendum is an invasion of their private lives and a move toward imposing more rigid Catholic doctrine.”

There is only one Catholic Doctrine: there is no liberal or rigid versions of it. There is no pick and choose which parts of it one will accept and what can be ignore either. It is the whole package as taught by the Magisterium. Anyone who claims otherwise is attempting to make a personal claim on the Church against the Supremacy of Christ, in order to impose on Christ their personal view on what His agenda for the People of God should be.

For a quick and immediate reference on THE Catholic Doctrine the Catechism of the Catholic Church is universally available to all. There are no secrets!

I have no problem with it. If you are going to teach in a Catholic school, it makes sense that you at least affirm Catholic doctrine. Teachers used to be expected to be exemplary role models when I was growing up (showing my age, I am!) Bravo for the Bishop in trying to establish that again.

Why shouldn’t Catholic school teachers uphold moral standards?

I agree with FW Ken. Teachers are active role models in young lives; they should be expected to follow and exhibit the moral teachings of the institution. Nurses are to be good nurses. If they choose to use contraception in their private lives it has no effect on their nursing care.

Of course as a practical matter, teachers who lie and use contraception are not going to be caught at it since the Catholic school isn’t going to pay for it. Typically morals clauses are invoked when an unmarried woman becomes visibly pregnant or when teachers are discovered to be in flagrant violation of the standard, such as acting in porn movies or posting about sinful behavior to Facebook.

And how sympathetic a story would we see in the local paper if an anonymous teacher said he or she couldn’t sign the new policy agreement that, for instance, all students are to be treated as the gender they present as, not their biological one? If a gym teacher said he or she didn’t feel comfortable having a boy in the girls’ locker room?

I rather think we’d see a different approach over what personal beliefs teachers are permitted to express in their private lives.

Practice what you teach. To do otherwise is teaching what you practice.

There is an evangelical school in these here parts that is quite popular and well respected. The parents of all students are required to sign a statement of faith, not much different from what Bishop Vasa proposes. It does not appear to be hindering the significant growth of the school. Perhaps there are legal distinctions between the two but it seems that the good bishop is onto something.

I had a liberal friend on Facebook argue that, since churches pay no taxes (and therefore atheists like her “pay” for churches), the mandate is legal. In other words: liberals argue that not paying taxes (something a slew of other organizations, including left-wing ones are exempt from) means you have no rights.

Frankly, we simply need to not comply with this mandate. Screw the judges, screw the fines. Massive civil disobedience. Forget closing the doors or looking for run-arounds. Just pull a leaf from the leftist playbook and ignore the law.

I think they should issue all employes a 60 day notice of termination. State that if we are required to violate our Christian beliefs we will be forced to close the school, hospital, or any other operations they may have.

That would certainly drive the cost of Obama”care” completely out of sight, well make that even further out of sight.

I think they should issue all employes a 60 day notice of termination. State that if we are required to violate our Christian beliefs we will be forced to close the school, hospital, or any other operations they may have.

Regarding schools: the State would love to have Catholic schools close down.

Regarding hospitals and other social services: the State would find a reason to take them over under “compelling interest” or some other reason. They would then start offering contraception, abortion, sex-reassignment treatments, and other UnCatholic abominations as soon as conveniently possible.

Dave,
It may not be as easy as you think, there are still property rights in spite of the Prez. What is the market value of the properties? Can the state take property that is being used for church services? I don’t think the Catholic Church would roll over and play dead. Of course I wouldn’t put a Kristallnacht past the O’ supporters.

“Regarding schools: the State would love to have Catholic schools close down.”

Do not be too sure about that. State Aid for Catholic schools was won in Australia by ONE diocese only threatening to close all its schools on day one of the school year and have all its students DEMANDING their place at the local State schools as guaranteed by law. Even now each Catholic Schools on average are in receipt of State Aid for each pupil only at the rate of 70-75% of what it costs the government for each pupil at their State school: i.e. the government is saving the equivalent of +/- 25% of the total education costs for 669,000 or 22% of the total school enrolments. Were the State to try to take over these additional costs (including the building or the acquisition of the school infrastructure necessary) would create a massive dent in the national budget, the education budget in particular.

(A significant proportion of baptised Catholic children also attend the State schools for many reasons ranging from lack of funds to pay school fees to faith “weakness”)

I’d like to see hospital employees sign such a testimony of faith as well. I have a friend who was nearly put on “compassionate care” in a Catholic hospital by a non Catholic staff doctor. She realized what he was trying to do, and marshaled all her strength to object. That was a year ago, and while she is not well, she is still enjoying being alive. Euthanasia is becoming quietly practiced more and more. I would like the assurance that it won’t happen in Catholic hospitals.

A conscience protection bill has been introduced in the House.

LaVallette:

I speak of the situation in the USA. The teachers’ unions hate having any aid and comfort given to religious schools. They don’t care how much it would cost the state if the schools closed down. Having a total monopoly would be worth it for them.

J. Stuart Little:

The State under Obama and since Kelso will do whatever it damn well pleases regarding property it desires. For them, Naboth’s vineyard is a template to follow, not a cautionary tale.

Also, sticking it to a Catholic institution would be worth it for them, regardless of the cost and efficiency.

ann r, can’t the hospitals handle that with policy? Despite personal beliefs, doctors cannot perform on-demand abortions nor commit euthanasia in the hospital, by policy.

Ed the Roman, what do you think about this article about Cardinal Turkson, Ghana, being pushed for Pope by a coalition of socialist organizations? I don’t jump on every bandwagon; I’m genuinely asking for Catholic opinion on this. One would like to think that secular politics won’t have a big impact on the conclave, but maybe that’s naive.

This is the excellent Bishop Vasa. He did this before in his previous diocese of Baker, Oregon. According to the wiki:

Bishop Vasa had stated that St. Charles Medical Center in Bend, Oregon, located within the Baker Diocese, “had “gradually moved away” from the church’s ethical directives and can no longer be called Catholic. As a result of that decision, Mass is no longer celebrated in the hospital’s chapel and all items considered Catholic were removed from the hospital and returned to the church. The hospital retained the St. Charles name and a cross remains atop the building.”

As recently as 1997, there was a well publicized Massachusetts case where a teacher in a Catholic school was fired over her marriage to a divorced man (whose marriage had not been annulled and they married in….you guessed it! An Episcopal church.) PS: the school is incorrectly identified as Family Name. It is actually Holy Family School of Rockland, MA.

Much more recently (2011), a “technology coordinator” a 2 Catholic schools was fired for using artificial insemination in violation of her employment contract in Ohio.

In both cases, the issue was the violation of a clearly worded contract of employment.

I don’t know if the govt would like to see Catholic schools close…they churn out students academically prepared for college who couldn’t tell you the first thing about the Catholic faith.

It doesn’t sound like it from the article, but where this could lead to on the Church side is: fine, we’ll provide insurance coverage for xyz, but we’ll not hire anyone who would ever elect to avail themselves of xyz.

One big cause of this mess, besides the nut job in the white house, is the collapse of religious orders. Providing contraception to nuns or monks or friars just wasn’t an issue. And people who had taken a vow of poverty didn’t cost that much, so no need to chase after silver from government subsidies.

Jacob,

Exactly. If most of the teaching/nursing/healthcare orders hadn’t gone looney after Vatican II, we’d have a much stronger fortress to hold against His Wun-ness.

I, for one, am praying Turkson does not get the nod.

@ Dave P.March 6, 2013

Ths Teachers Unions here want Sate Aid to Catholic schools abolished immediately and all money spent on State Schools. What they do not say is that this would lead to the closure of all Catholic schools with the available education dollars spread even more thinly over a larger body of students in the state schools.Catholic Schools students here are more than competitive academically than the product of the state school, normally finishing ahead on average at less overall costs than the State schools, although behind the elite private Grammar where fees start at about $12,000 a year going up to $30,000 plus.

Katherine (et alios),

I don’t know much about Card. Turkson, but he’s not one of my favorites (or “unfavorites”). My favorites are Ranjith and Burke (but I don’t think there’s much chance of an American being elected); additionally, I would be very happy with Bagnasco, Scola, or Ouellet. But perhaps it’s time for an Italian again.

I won’t name any “unfavorites,” but I’m not rooting for Dolan, O’Malley or, sadly, for he is a good orthodox theologian, Schoenborn.

It’s hard for those of us who don’t follow Vatican affairs much to know whom to favor. Thanks for the list, Bill. I’ll have to await the event, and I am praying for a solidly orthodox and strong choice. The health of the Roman church should be of concern to all Christians.

LaVallette:

I’m very aware of the costs of private/religious schools vs. public (state) schools. That’s one of many reasons why the teachers’ unions want any and all competition gone.

Ths Teachers Unions here want Sate Aid to Catholic schools abolished immediately and all money spent on State Schools.

While I am more…optimistic than my dear husband on fighting back (I simply think we should take a page from the liberal handbook and ignore the unjust laws and fight back ruthlessly when they attempt to enforce them), he’s right about funding.

We live in the largest school district in Wisconsin, which spends five figures to educate each student (somewhere between $12,000 and $16,000 per year, IIRC). We also have some of the worst test scores, highest drop out rates, lowest literacy rates, worst math skills, and highest incidents of violence.

Do the teachers’ unions care? No. They will argue, vehemently, that the problem is simply there isn’t *enough money* being spent.

And while the issues run deeper than simply money (there is a very anti-education culture, especially in Milwaukee’s black community, where black kids who attend a good school like Messmer Prep are ridiculed in their neighborhoods for “acting white” in getting an education), it’s clear to anyone with a brain that money doesn’t solve the problems.

To be fair, we’ve been happy, so far, with the public education our eldest has received. But we (mostly Dave P.) has looked at the statistics and public school education in the USA takes a nose dive after 4th grade. Next year, we are using the blessing of school choice (which I believe should be universal) and putting the boys in a Catholic school.

But that’s off topic, kind of.

The same applies to Catholic hospitals, etc. It doesn’t matter that the Catholic Church does more charitably than the government does (and for far less, too). It’s not about the money. It’s about sticking it to the Church.

Did anyone see the CBS Nightly News tonight? Members of SNAP gave a list of the Cardinals they deem “unacceptable” for the Papacy. This list included Cardinal Dolan who actually *met* with members of SNAP in an attempt to work with them. The representative was belligerent, rude, and basically said the goal of SNAP is not justice for the victims, but to bankrupt the Church so that every Catholic church, school, and business has a “FOR SALE” sign in the window.

This is what we’re up against. And I don’t intend to go quietly or fight nicely.

Katherine, the article seems heated. I don’t have a favorite, and the unfavorites I have are so unlikely that I am unconcerned.

I’m confident that the Pope will be hated and vilified by all the right people no matter whom is elected.

Amy -

I quit watching CBS news when they did not fire Dan Rather for cause. And SNAP officials make their living spitting on Catholics. Good to see they are becoming more open about their real goals. It would be nice to know percentage of their funding comes from plaintiff attorneys.

I like Burke, but not his – or any American’s – chances. Schoenberg and O’Malley have not dealt effectively with secularism or dissent in Austria and Boston.

Whoever the next pope is, I hope he’ll be Leo XIV (after the Great Leo, Leo II and Leo XIII).

Ken, Prof, Amy P., E the R, etc.

What if some like Francis Arinze got the Big Miter? I don’t, as I’ve said before, have a dog in this hunt. But like Katherine, I genuinely want to know from Catholics what such a vote might mean.

Btw, a surprisingly perverse article:

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1350453?eng=y

Dolan — a ham; O’Malley — hardly one from whom one can expect a serious “cleansing,” and no friend of traditional liturfgy; and the Brazillian — a vacuity.

What if some like Francis Arinze got the Big Miter?

While I like Cdl. Dolan I agree with FW Ken above that the chances of an American Pope are slim (not impossible, but slim).

I liked Arinze the last time around. I, personally, think the next Pope will come from Africa or Latin America — places where the Church is thriving, places where evangelization is stronger than it is in Europe and the U.S.

To me? It would simply mean the next Pope is committed to revitalizing the church in places where its faltering – Europe and the U.S. I think he would make a fine shepherd.

However, he’s also 80. Just as I see the next Pope coming from a particular geographic area, I see him being in his 60s.

Just my opinion.

Politically speaking, however, it would be hysterical to watch the left squirm at an African Pope taking on Obama, who is the most contemptuous politician Catholics have dealt with in a long time.

Like Amy, I like Arinze, but expect them to go for someone younger.

OMG! A Roman Catholic bishop is requiring teachers in Roman Catholic schools to profess belief in Roman Catholic teachings?

How mean-spirited! What next? The election of a Roman Catholic Pope who professes belief in the traditional teachings of Christianity?

FW Ken – Arinze is a buffoon and an enemy of Traditionalism. Cardinal Bagnasco, a disciple of Cardinal Siri, should be the next Pope. But, it will probably be another Modernist heretic like all have been since the corrupted election of the fat buffoon, Roncalli, in 1958,

Fortunately, our Patrick Kirill supports measures to ban homo propaganda, so the election of another Modernist as Pope of Rome will not cause me to lose any sleep.

Uh…that should be “Patriarch Kirill.” “Patrick” Kirill is is red-haired, ne’er-do-well cousin in Dublin. Sorry ’bout that.

Arinze is too old. My bet is for a youngish man with a longish papacy before him to complete a cleansing of the Church in the mode of the Counter Reformation: i.e. excising of the Modernists Philosophical infiltration inside the Church itself. In many places including the USA, (vide this very article) indications are that the fight has already been engaged.

Perhaps more formal public excommunications,to replace the reliance of the last two papacies on “late sententia” which our “most educated of all Catholic generations” does not even know about or understand. This has lead to significant confusion among the faithful. They may it be among the “most educated” generation in the secular sense, but they are also among the “least evangelized”.

LaVallette
March 6, 2013

Arinze is too old.

And also too much a buffoon, a Modernist, an anti-Traditionalist, a liberal, an anti-Latin Mass stalwart and an idiot.

Other than that, he would make a fine Pope for the Conciliar Church of Paul the Sick.

Mr. Janousek is, of course, slandering Cardinal Arinze. There is no evidence at all that he is a “Modernist” or a “liberal.” He has for a long time made it clear that Catholic bishops should impose sanctions on “dissenting” Catholics, especially those involved in politics and public figures. He has been resolute in his defense of heterosexual marriage (a tautological phrase, I know) and in his criticism of those promoting SS and WO. It is true that he has never been particularly “traditonalist” as regards the Roman Rite Mass, but he has always opposed those who advocate “do-it-yourself” ad-libbing liturgy. I thought that Arinze was the best that could be hoped for in 2005, and I would be content with his selection now, although I think it most unlikely to happen.

I like the Cardinal from the Phillipines, Tagle. He’s got the languages, the youngish age (almost a year younger than me, that’s YOUNG), the right public response to the clerical sexual abuse issue, he’s fond of charismatics, a traditional Mass promoter, he’s got it all.

And, while I’m being prophetic, I’ll guess that he’d take the name Joseph I.

The devout Filipinos I know would plotz. Talk about joy!

You heard it here first.

When Cardinal Ratzinger became Pope Benedict XVI, i was curious as to what the reaction of my fellow Catholics would be.

The religious left, of course, was predicting dire consequences. Conservatives were beyond pleased. But what interested me most was the reaction of the majority of Catholics, which was along the lines of “We have a Pope. Yay!” And they took Benedict into their hearts regardless of what folks on either end of the spectrum were saying.

It amuses me to hear that groups like SNAP have lists of folks they don’t want to see elected, since their wishes won’t affect the deliberations of the conclave, delusions to the contrary notwithstanding.

i rather expect most Catholics will have a reaction similar to 2005 to whoever is elected. There will be rejoicing, and most will take the new pope into their hearts.

Don, I liked Pope Paul VI. I know a lot of people make those exact complaints about him, but on the liberal/progressive side, there are just as many complaints that he hindered, stifled and plain sabotaged the council of John XXIII who would – had he lived – have allowed artificial contraception, everyone would be ordained, and basically (apologies in advance to any Episcopalians) we’d all be Episcopalian by now.

As to Cardinal Arinze, I would have liked him in the last election, though I was very happy with the pope we got

But he is too old now. If the conclave wants a young, non-European pope, the pundits seem to think Cardinal Tagle of the Philippines has a good chance. But funnily enough, I think they might actually go for an Italian this time if (and it’s a big ‘if’) they seriously want to reform the Curia and even more the entrenched Italian attitude of “I have a cousin who can do you a bargain” which means the nepotism and cronyism that goes on.

Some interesting material on Card. Tagle.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/theanchoress/2013/03/06/a-pope-to-give-the-church-a-youthful-face-and-energy/

As I recall, Ratzinger wasn’t on any popular lists of possible popes last time around, so maybe one of the “front-runners” will win, and maybe not.

Fortunately, no matter whom you vote for, the Pope always gets in.:-)

But, Ed the Roman, whoever goes into the conclave as “pope” usually walks out a cardinal.

Cardinal Tagle as Pope would be a true gift to the whole Church.

Cardinal Chito would be a great asset to Christendom, forget just the Roman Church. His YouTube series should be shown in every confirmation, inquirers, adult and youth Church school class!

I wish I could be Roman, if he is selected by the Conclave. Heck, I’ll be one in spirit, no matter where I attend!

Agreed, I find it easier to identify with the RC’s than even ACNA.

Dudes, what’s in the way?

And now, for something completely different:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/deaconsbench/2013/03/and-now-a-village-people-jingle-to-back-cardinal-tagle-for-pope/

As someone who spent a year and a half living in the Philippines, I am also a fan of Cardinal Tagle, a/k/a “Chito.”

However, his age of 55 probably works against him. I don’t think the Church needs another decades-long disaster like JPII.

And, William Tighe, I don’t need to “slander” Arinze. He does a good job of doing that himself.

BTW, “slander” is oral defamation and “libel” is written defamation, so you are mistaken in saying I slandered Arinze. The correct English expression would be that I libeled him.

Thought I should point out your misunderstanding of the Queen’s English. Sorta makes you look kinda stupid, doesn’t it?

Mr. Janousek, you pick nits about the usage of words, and call your interlocutor ‘kinda stupid’. You deny the defamatory nature of your remarks about Cardinal Arinze, on the grounds that he is self-defaming. You call the Blessed John Paul II a ‘decades-long disaster’.

Whether or not Mr. Tighe looks ‘kinda stupid’, Sir, you look decidedly uncharitable. At the moment, in fact, you seem to have more feet in your mouth than you have on your body.

Oh, by the way: You are, as I seem to recall, an American, and as such a citizen of a republic founded upon a staunch opposition to monarchy, and to the British Crown in particular. As one of Her Majesty’s loyal subjects, I request that when you wish to complain about other people’s misapplication of your slovenly colonial dialect, you may in future leave the Queen and her English out of it.

Color me totally confused about how various groups within the church react to Cardinal Tagle. I am seeing traditionalists who foam at the mouth when his name is mentioned-calling him a “liberal’s dream pope” and others who see him as an ally to the EF of the liturgy. I am seeing the same thing on the so-called “liberal” side of the spectrum. (I refer to them as “liberal” because many of them are not Catholic at all..just heretics.)

Personally, I think he is a very good man. He seems to be a vibrant, charming man with a true heart for the poor. I have watched some of his youtube talks and have heard nothing to hint that he is not an orthodox Catholic.

Coming from the Philippines, Tagle would also have a feeling for the danger of radical Islam.

It seems likely that by the end of next week at the latest we’ll be able to stop speculating and start complaining about the actual new pope. That is, as a non-Catholic, I won’t be complaining unless the new man looks likely to try to make his church more like TEC.

For something a little lighter, this is for you, Christopher.

With the worlds seemingly obsessed with the selection of the bishop of one Italian See, I’m put in mind of something I read a couple of years ago: the early Roman bishops were not especially distinguished. Paul was more erudite than Paul. Quick: who was pope during the life of St. Ignatius? Augustine? Let’s pass over the popes of the late first millennium, shall we. Some were saints of course, some not so much. We have been blessed with a century of outstanding popes. As a new pope comes on the scene, is wise to remind ourselves again that the claim of infallibility is very limited and tightly defined. It doesn’t include the theological acumen of a Benedict, the charisma of a John Paul II, or the courage of a Paul VI or Pius XII. We’ve been blessed.

FW Ken is right. It is a good sign when the Popes pass through history without much distinction. Leastwise in decent places. But as Gollum would say: We’re not in decent places.

All right, let’s see what people think of my decent-candidates’ and undesirables’ lists here:

Tarcisio Bertone,
Raymond Burke,
Antonio Cañizares Llovera,
Marc Ouellet, (?)
George Pell,
Luis Antonio Tagle (?)

[I'd like more information on Ouellet and Tagle before confirming them on the above list: musical preferences and commitment? Favouring Traditional Latin Mass? Continuation of Benedict's outreach programmes including ordinariates for Anglicans and maybe Lutherans?]

Undesirables:
Jorge-Maria Bergoglio,
Thomas Collins,
Godfried Daneels,
Timothy Dolan,
Karl Lehmann
William Levada,
Roger Mahony,
Reinhard Marx
Séan O’Malley,
Christoph Schönborn,
Angelo Sodano,
Rainer Maria Woelki
Donald Wuerl

I really would not worry about the risk of Roger Cardinal Mahony getting the chair. In either sense.

The CEO and staff @ Bad Vestments will be relieved to know that the Congregation of Cardinals has discussed use of drones to target liturgical abuse.

Fuinseoig, that me laugh out loud! I’m sure Christopher will love it!

Confessor, that’s also a hoot! Please visit the link for a “simulated drone strike on a papier-mache puppet.”

Good one, Fuinseoig!

Oho!! Good to know that Tagle might be somewhat less than orthodox – in which case he’ll not be put into the “decent” list after all…

Still, that leaves me with 5 positive hopefuls…

Sasha,

Please document Card. Tagle’s lack of orthodoxy. Did you read the link I provided to Tahe Anchoress?

Katherine, thank you. I should have credited Fr. Z’s blog with the link, but as soon as I saw it over there, I had to share it with our host as the sterling and upright citizen of the glorious and beautiful state of Missouri, in close proximity to the cultural and social hub that is St. Louis, that he is

Now! For all your papal candidate selection needs (especially seeing as we’ve right now got a date for the start of the conclave – Tuesday, 12th March – link courtesy of Mark Shea, I present:

The Pope-U-Lator! Input your requirements for the next Vicar of Christ, and see what candidates match up with your standards (then rush down the bookies to place a bet on your pick of the bunch).

Among my selection was Cardinal Polycarp Pengo from Tanzania. Why no mention of him as a potential black African pope before? Why should Nigeria and Ghana get all the love?

Conclave beginning Tuesday, with the first vote Tuesday afternoon Rome time.

Especially with a name like Polycarp Pengo! Too bad they don’t keep their given names as Pope. Pope Polycarp has a nice ring to it.

Katherine,

Thanks for the info. Rome is 7-8 hours ahead of me, so I could wake up to a pope Tuesday morning. Probably won’t, but it’s possible.

I wonder if Polycarp is his birth name, or gained in religion. Anyway, there is nothing to prohibit his keeping it if wanted to do so, but there is a movement for a Pope Joseph I among the chattering Catholic classes.

Seven hours ahead of Ft. Worth, FW Ken. Six hours from the Eastern time zone, and one hour ahead of Fuinseoig in Ireland. Check the news early in the morning and on your lunch hour. And by the way, we all have to set our clocks ahead one hour on Saturday night, so we’ll all be tired next week.

Somehow I doubt that the Catholic chattering classes OR the “Catholic” chattering classes have much actual effect on this.

Besides the major news outlets, HotAir.com has a reliable, Catholic reporter, Ed Morrissey, in Rome with press credentials. You could check there next week for inside scoop if there is any.

Tagle was my Pope-U-Later winner.

I graciously decided to let him choose his own Papal name. (Someone suggested Joseph I, though Peter Joseph I would also be nice.)

Don Janousek wrote:

“Thought I should point out your misunderstanding of the Queen’s English. Sorta makes you look kinda stupid, doesn’t it?”

Perhaps; I leave that to the readers. IMO, though, not so stupid and ignorant as one who, on no factual basis whatsoever, keeps on referring to Henry VIII as “syphillitic,” perhaps confusing Henry with his French rival, Francis I. Not that I hold any brief for Henry, of course.

But Confessor, any use of “Peter” will set off the whole Malachy thing again. And it’s just quieting down.

FW Ken, I didn’t attack Tagle for “lack of orthodoxy”, simply questioned him as to that bit (particularly relative to apparently not favouring the Traditional Latin Mass and the ordinariates). A question mark is not the same as putting one on the “undesirables” list.

Sasha, not that preference for the either form of the Mass is a matter of orthodoxy for RCs, I’m not aware that Card. Tagle is on record on that issue, or the Ordinariates, for that matter. Again, what is the source.

FW Ken, for what it’s worth (or not worth), the Wikipedia article notes something about a “Bologna School” contretemps which at one point he was favouring a “progressive” (i.e., leftist) reading of Vatican II as being a rupture with what the Church had hitherto been. The rest is pretty well hearsay – which I’ll be as suspicious of as anything!!!

It’s not that I’m in the least out to libel or slander Tagle – I’m simply trying to find out more information. Why is it that putting a question out there seems to have a negative connotation?

I remember reading here (according to MaryMargaret) that some conservatives would “froth at the mouth” on hearing Tagle’s name.

Yes, that’s likely hearsay, but I’d like more information in order to see if there’s any truth to it, FW Ken. Thanks in advance!

[While we're at it, you really believe that preference for the "Novus Ordo" vs. Traditional Latin Mass is NOT a matter of orthodoxy? I would have thought otherwise (especially since with the TDL, one's not supposed to be able to get away with guitars and folk-"masses"...).]

It is a very serious matter to say that someone is “less than orthodox”. I read the whole Wiki article, and its very clear his view of the council is perfectly orthodox. To say otherwise is to discount the man’s own words.

I did find one Catholic blogger who said Tagle is “no friend of the Transitional Latin Mass”, but I don’t have much respect for that guy. The TLM was also abused in its day, but anyone who says that either form is invalid is no Catholic. I am fortunate to be in a parish where the Novus Ordo is celebrated with dignity and solemnity, so perhaps I am a bit prejudiced.

I never did find anything about the Ordinariates.

Do let me caution you, Sasha, that a lot of Catholic bloggers tend to be more Catholic than the pope (as they say). Those folks are no different than modernists, except they reject different parts of the Faith.

Very good, FW Ken: I appreciate your advice!!!

Ah, it’s so hard having to watch everything from outside at times… Reservations about everybody and unease at everything while wishing the best for everybody, especially now that the Anglicans have disintegrated into what nowadays they are, alas… [It was the Anglicans who at one point seemed like they could have been a match for somebody with Orthodox and Protestant background who also worked with and for Catholics.]

One thing of encouragement was where at least one bishop in the apparently-Missouri-Synod-style Independent German Lutheran Church (Selbstständig Evangelische-Lutherische Kirche {SELK}) found many of the positions of the emeritus pope Benedict XVI as “throughout close” (durchaus nahe) to those of his group!!!

You see, Mr. Ken, that to me it seems that it’s via the ordinariates that perhaps some real measure of ecumenism between genuine Christians might eventually take place – not the “wishy-washy feel-good” Communist mirage for which the “liberals” have fallen heels over head!!!

This reminds me of when I came up with a fictitious computer program called Anti-Cat Bot. The idea was that you would turn it on and it would seek out Catholic forums and automatic post threads like “Why do Catholics worship Mary?” and so on.

For Version 2.0 I added a Catholic-on-Catholic feature. Enable that option and it would posts threads on Medjugorje, the SSPX, and the Latin Mass. The selling tag was, “Turn it on and watch the fur fly!”

I agree about the Ordinariates, I just can’t find any connection to Card. Tagle. In fact, I haven’t heard anything about it and any of the cardinals. Google isn’t helpful, either.

FW Ken wrote (inter alia),

“I did find one Catholic blogger who said Tagle is ‘no friend of the Transitional Latin Mass’, but I don’t have much respect for that guy.”

I don’t like the “transitional” Latin mass, either, unless it is “transitioning” from English to Latin rather than the other way.

Gentlemen, I suggest there is one simple test of Cardinal Tagle’s orthodoxy or lack of same vis-à-vis the Mass.

Has he ever been photographed, videoed or otherwise seen by reputable eye-witnesses in the presence of giant papier-mâché puppets during a celebration of the Mass, either that according to the Novus Ordo or Pius V? Liturgical dance will also count as a mark against him, but a lesser one.

That is all we need to know.

Sasha, I agree with FW Ken that it is dangerous to try to be “more Catholic than the Pope”. In my comment, where I confessed to be confused by the attitude of both traditionalists (I do not use words such as “conservative” when referring to the Church) and so-called “liberals” with respect to Cardinal Tagle, I am certainly NOT trying to define him.

I read rorate-caeli as well as the national catholic distorter..umm..reporter. In some comments on rorate-caeli, I have seen a real distaste for Cardinal Tagle. I think some of this may be a reaction to the fact that many commenters on ncronline see the Cardinal very positively. Even SNAP seems to see him as “not the worst”. lol

On the other hand, Don Janousek, who could not be considered a “modernist” by anyone, has a very positive opinion of Cardinal Tagle.

So, I am guessing that if you see folks on both sides of the divide loving and hating this man..he might be a truly good, holy and Catholic Cardinal. I have watched his speech at the Eucharistic Congress. He impressed me with his humility, kindness and charisma. I was also impressed with his very orthodox understanding of the Holy Eucharist.

Sorry this is so long. To conclude, I really like this man. Whether he becomes the next Holy Father or not, I am grateful that I have become aware of him and of so many other Cardinals outside of my own country.

If both NCR and rorate-coeli are peeved, that may mean he’s a great guy.

LOL, Ed, I tend to agree. They are not fans of Grandpapa Bennedeto..either of them. Plus, I just personally like him. I will try to keep an eye on him no matter what happens in the conclave. He is an interesting one to watch.