Good move. TEC’s long history of trying to take stuff, and often succeeding, fully justifies this.

First one out the gate usually picks the judge and court they file this in as well.

I wish them well, but exactly how many of these cases has PECUSA *lost*? Eventually people will just have to cut their losses and leave. Saddling KJS and company with lots of empty buildings they have to maintain (of sell to Muslims!) may be the last defiant gesture they can make. Being true to the faith most often doesn’t mean you win in court. In the last 2000 years or so (starting with the Gospels) that’s been the record.

Bob, I can only guess from your comment that you either (a) support TEC or (b) just haven”t kept up. The Denis canon does not apply to parishes in S Carolina, at least per the state Supreme Court- so TEC (it long ago stopped being PECUSA). Until or unless the United States constitution is changed to give jurisdiction over real estate trusts to someone other than the state courts, or the United States makes TEC the established religion of the US, the parishes in S Carolina own their churches. Pawley’s Island left a dozen years ago, and the courts backed them up. Now, it may be that TEC will make some sort of bogus claim against diocesan assets (diocesan assets not being specifically cited in the decision on parish assets), but that is the whole point of the move by S Carolina- to head that off.

Unfortunately, no remaining bishop in TEC has the moral fortitude to stand up for the Church, bring charges against KJS, and restore episcopal authority usurped by the dictatorship. By this point, even the revisionists are shocked by what she does, but figure she has her hands full for the next several years, and hope she doesn’t decide to succeed herself as PB in 2015. ‘Cause if she does, you don’t wanna be a liberal bishop in the midwest who is a month behind on the TEC “asking” or you will find yourself up on charges.

Remember at this time the Supreme Court’s latest decision left it up to the states, and SC has already spoken.

Isn’t identity theft a criminal offense? Federal or State? If that comes up you people outside SC who have visited TEO’s sight may have to testify.

At least it isn’t one Christian group suing another though the press may try to present it that way.

I would love to see the Dennis Canon tossed, but because property law is almost entirely left to the states don’t see how a uniform interpretation or application of any principle in the field can be mandated by the US Supreme Court. Regardless, I’m betting that DioSC’s case has to be about as slam-dunk as any given how the SC supremes decided the All Saints suit.

It will be fun watching KJS/DBB being told to just go away by the SC courts. Any bets on how many appeals they’ll try before they give up?

Bullies and stand over merchants like the present leadership of the TEO can only be defeated by taking a stand against them on the principles and show them up for the “paper” tigers they are.

Bob, That thing about suing others in the Gospel…you may wish to read it again. It starts off by saying Don’t take fellow Christians to court or it could go badly for by the tables turning and the first one that sued could have the tables turned and the original one to sue could end up in prison. TEc started this a few years back in other places in the nation. Now is the time the TEc could be thrown in prison.

Understand the whys, but don’t agree that going to court is what anyone should be doing.

So true, Lakeland Two. Amicable separations are the way to go. We all know TEc cannot work that way. They don’t have the Spirit for it to happen.

The Dennis Canon has already lost in the South Carolina Supreme Court.

http://accurmudgeon.blogspot.com/2009/09/dennis-canon-loses-in-south-carolina.html

This is a good move by the Diocese of SC. It prevents the sort of circus now going on in San Joaquin and Fort Worth where there are two “Episcopal” dioces. Texas courts have not been able to untangle the mess – mainly because they refuse to apply neutral principles of real estate law, but that is their concern.

The SC Supreme Court has taken a dim view of the Dennis Canon in the All Saints Waccamaw case. I suspect the Dio of SC will win this case, thus putting a crimp in that sham group known as The Episcopal Forum.

If it is proven in court that a diocese can leave and keep it’s name, as is the case in South Carolina, there are a few bishops that may be forced via their strong orthodox people in the pews to move forward and dissafilliate from TEc, also. Hierarchy claims are out the window, and the entire house of cards that is TEc will come down being taken by the wind to the four corners of the United States.

Milton Finch, it should be emphasized that this many work only in selected states, depending upon the approach the state courts take. The idea is still in litigation in California and Texas. As I understand it, the outlook is not good in CA but those in TX are hopeful. The effort lost in PA because of some litigation before the diocese left. South Carolina looks like the best situation for dioceses wishing to unyoke from TEC. In some other states the idea has not been tested.

You folks misread me. I hope the SC folks win (the traditional ones, not the puppet diocese). What I mean is PECUSA usually wins, that’s all. I wish they didn’t because they’re mostly wrong. What I meant about the Gospel is that Christians shouldn’t be surprised if they do good and get punished and persecuted for it. “Winning” by the good guys isn’t nearly so typical over 2000 years.
And I am very likely behind the times, TJ, in knowing which of their canons ought to be seen in which way! I hope you’re right.

Luckily the SC Supreme Court has pretty much laid the groundwork for TEo to get their legal rear-ends handed to them.

Given KJS’s legal precedent of fighting until the last dollar is spent, I say bravo to Bishop Lawrence. Don’t give them an inch.

Problem is, Shori and Obama and many judges operate in an alternate universe, opposite of God’s Law/Word/Authority defining of Truth, Love and Life.

As the alleged biological son and adoptive son of foreign nationals and having gone to college as a foreign national (sponsored by foreign nationals), Obama has been an unconstitutionally unqualified president from the first. Not a peep from Congress/Senate/FBI/CIA in objection to this.

Since his ‘election’ through fraud, deception, intimidation and demagoguery, he has brazenly and openly made slaw of the law and constitution without a peep from anyone of our nation’s supposed guardians of the Constitution.

Shori is Obama’s spiritual siamese twin. Canon Smanon is her mantra. She has the same audacity and brazenness. The HOB is her gelded Congress/Senate and the HOD and Integrity are her Union/Black Panther thugs.

Typo – That’s Canon-Schmanon or Schtmanon. Sorry bout that.

“Who steals my purse steals trash; ’tis something, nothing;
‘Twas mine, ’tis his, and has been slave to thousands;
But he that filches from me my good name
Robs me of that which not enriches him,
And makes me poor indeed.”

Bob, You need to read the friendly Anglican Curmudgeon’s blog. Just google, Anglican Curmudgeon and you will find him. Anyway, the Curmudgeon has already set the record straight- TEC has NOT won a majority of the lawuits. They want you to think that but it is just not true. The Curmudgeon is the best source for legal analysis of all things TEC and/or Anglican.

Lakeland two, Bishop Lawrence mentioned what you brought up in his letter. He likens our situation to Paul’s exercising his rights as a Roman CItizen. Go read Bishop Lawrence’s letter at http://www.diosc.com

Anglican Curmudgeon can also be found in the links box immediately to our right.

Galletta,

No, I’ve read +Lawrence’s statement and the related theological position. I disagree with it. I don’t think that anybody should be going to court for any reason. After all, did Jesus not say in Matthew 5:38-48:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

Matthew 5:25:

Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison.

I said in my earlier statement that I understood the whys – I just don’t agree with going to court, even as a preemptive strike. There are spiritual realms that will be affected by this strategy, and I don’t think that it it will be a good thing in the long run for South Carolina even though they may win.

I can’t agree, Lakeland Two. South Carolina, seeing the thief breaking into the house, is to do nothing to stop the theft? They are already on record allowing any parishes who want to affiliate with TEC to do so without penalty. If TEC took the same approach none of these lawsuits would be necessary. If both sides were Christian, charity would prevail.

I understand I seem to hold a unique perspective. TEC’s wrongs don’t make what SC is doing right.

Jesus – note: Jesus – said give the cloak and tunic and turn the other cheek. Where is that happening?

Is it fair? No. But the question is: What does God require of us based on Jesus’ words?

What if, instead of all this energy being used in this way, we just walk away and start fresh. Others have and been blessed. What are we so afraid of? Buildings? Pensions? Remains of people already with God? Fear – simple fear. Wasted energy that could be used on ministry. In other words, distraction. Satan’s good at that.

I like the way Bishop Lawrence explained it. If Paul can ask for a Roman trial because he is a Roman citizen, why can’t the diocese appeal to our civil legal authorities here in SC? I think that makes sense especially if this action can head off many individual trials against parishes,etc.

Lakeland two, You don’t believe in going to court for ANY reason AT ALL? Wow. that is pretty strict. I am not fond of the overuse of our legal system for many trivial trials but this is to protect the ownership of property worth millions which if won by TEC, they would be forced to sell as they have nowhere near the members needed to keep these buildings maintained. I see a great good that can come from this especially if this judgement deflates TEO’s strategy here.

I think you attitude would be vastly different if this were Central Florida being set up for a major property grab. Gotta remember, some of these buildings are historic and takes lots of money to maintain. Not to mention the gem of the diocese, St. Christopher Camp and Conference Center which is used by other groups and could be a great way to reach out to others.

Actually you’d be surprised about my opinion of what’s happened, happening and could happen in Central Florida. I think Jesus is pretty specific, and I think Christians are called to a much higher standard than we’ve been living. We L2 find it difficult to donate money to a building knowing that within less than 20 years that building will probably no longer belong to Central Florida and will most likely be sold for any purpose other than worshiping God.

Just so you understand, Galletta, it’s our L2 opinion that any conservative diocese or parish left in TEC will be driven out with TEC going for the land grab. It’s also been our opinion that TEC’s eye would fall on CFL sooner rather than later. Recent events indicate that resistence was “handled” and the “oasis” was just an illusion.

We love our priest because he is a godly man. The building/property is just a building, no matter how beautiful or expensive it is. Our souls are worth more than treasures on earth.

Jesus also said to resist evil. And TeC is evil.

Yes, CarolynP, I agree. But we must do it the way God says to do it and not take matters into our own hands. Jesus says to resolve things before they get to court… even if you have to hand over your very clothing.

Again, I understand the whys and as an American there is the right to sue/protect. I’m just saying that Jesus wants us – as Christians – to use a different dynamic. If we are going to charge our “enemies” with “cherry-picking” scriptures, we need to make sure we aren’t doing the very same thing ourselves. I note that these two scriptures were not addressed in the theological statement. Nothing Paul or anyone else writes can overwrite what Jesus says.