FIRING ON SUMTER

Tuesday, July 10th, 2012 | Uncategorized

In a vote that surprises absolutely no one who can read, the Episcopal Organization officially approved homosexual marriage.  Blah, blah, blah.  If you have the stomach for it, wander over to Twitter and search for the #GC77 hashtag.  Some of those people actually seem to think they’re William Wilberforce and not rich, white members of a tiny, declining universalist sect that stopped influencing much of anyone decades ago.

What’s next for those wacky Episcopalians?  If this reaction from Kendall Harmon is any indication of Palmetto State sentiment, I suspect TEO may temporarily suspend its search for the next oppressed ”sexuality” in favor of redoubling its efforts to finally and forever rid itself of the last bastion of anything approaching Christian traditionalism remaining in the Episcopal Organization:

This General Convention action is unbiblical, unchristian, unanglican and unseemly. It will further wreak havoc among Anglicans, and indeed Christians, in North America and around the world.

By making this decision, The Episcopal Church moves further away from Jesus Christ and his teaching. It thereby makes it necessary for the diocese of South Carolina to take further decisive and dramatic action to distance itself from this false step.

We in South Carolina must differentiate to stay loyal to Christ, but also to keep our own parish members and not hinder the mission of Jesus Christ who loves all and transforms all by the power of the Holy Spirit to holiness of life, a holiness which has a clear shape agreed by Christians East and West throughout 20 centuries.

Time to start arming Charleston Harbor.  The Star of the West just put to sea.

65 Comments to FIRING ON SUMTER

Barney
July 10, 2012

Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag, that wears a single star.

It is nice to know that the spirit of the revolution is still alive, somewhere.

Jeffersonian
July 10, 2012

The heresies are accelerating, and TEo is daring any and all to defy them. It will soon be impossible to be anything but a flaming revisionist in TEo, exactly what I predicted.

dwstroudmd
July 10, 2012

Whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad.

Tregonsee
July 10, 2012

I was absolutely amazed to find two messages on my phone from people at my last TEC chuch, which I left in 2006. Guess what they wanted to ask me about?

The young fogey
July 10, 2012

They have the right to govern themselves as long as they leave me alone.

Some of those people actually seem to think they’re William Wilberforce and not rich, white members of a tiny, declining universalist sect that stopped influencing much of anyone decades ago.

Love it.

I think Slightly Less Liberal Protestant Denomination, also known as ACNA or the Episcopal Church 10 Years Ago, is going to get a little bigger.

FW Ken
July 10, 2012

Watching TEC at the (near) endpoint of this story line, I was fascinated by reading an earlier part of the script. Same script, only the names and accents have changed.

http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/same-sex-marriage-and-the-revolt-against-metropolitan-jonah/

Allen Lewis
July 10, 2012

@Young Fogey -

“…Slightly Less Liberal Protestant Denomination, also known as ACNA …”

Rather snarky, but somewhat correct description there!

Christopher Johnson
July 10, 2012

Thanks for the heads-up, Ken. I may have something to say about this later.

Katherine
July 10, 2012

FW Ken, that’s discouraging. Even among some Orthodox? Alas, alas.

No one should be surprised about this, but I’ll bet there are some still in Episcopal pews who will be. I’ve been waiting for years for the flood of people to finally leave, and have concluded most of the ones who are left, won’t.

Chip Bounds
July 10, 2012

I agree wholeheartedly with Kendall’s statement. I also weep that the church of most of my 62 years has descended to the abyss and is now nothing more than a druid cult. I left the madness 3 years ago for the Orthodox Church in America and have never looked back. I think our ranks may grow, esp in the South. God bless the Anglican faithful esp Bishop Mark Lawrence.

Payton
July 10, 2012

Nine years ago I was shocked. Six years ago I was disappointed. Three years ago I was angry. Now I just shake my head and sigh… and maybe chuckle a bit. Truly sad what has happened to the church I grew up in.

Jmark
July 10, 2012

I left teo years ago. I check in here and at Stand Firm and at TitusOneNine to see what’s new in the ol’ teo. It’s like passing by a car wreck – I just can’t stop looking at the carnage.

Truth Unites... and Divides
July 10, 2012

“Watching TEC at the (near) endpoint of this story line, I was fascinated by reading an earlier part of the script. Same script, only the names and accents have changed.

http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/same-sex-marriage-and-the-revolt-against-metropolitan-jonah/

Thanks FW Ken for the link.

I can’t believe it. I mean, I can. But it’s still so surreal. I always thought the Eastern Orthodox would be able to stand against the Gay Militants.

Ad Orientem
July 10, 2012

Ditto what The Young Fogey said. Beyond which, time for a little honesty check. TEO has been completely unmoored from Christianity for a while now. So yea. Stay or go, the choice is yours. But you know what TEO is. So for those who do stay my sympathy level is going to be pretty low going forward.

goddessoftheclassroom
July 10, 2012

How can a church with liturgy as beautiful and a soul-fulfilling as Rite I come to such a pass?
I’ve been with the ACNA for the past several years, but my heart is still broken at having had to leave the parish I loved so much.

Jeffersonian
July 10, 2012

They gutted the liturgy, Goddess, and they bowlderized the lectionary. Termites don’t take down a mansion all at once.

Jeffersonian
July 10, 2012

oops…bowdlerized..

Ad Orientem
July 10, 2012

Truth Unites… and Divides
I fear you are getting all your information from the Rod Dreher culture warrior Evangelidox who seem to want to turn Orthodoxy into a byzantine rite of the SBC. The truth is that Jonah has been in a state of open war with the Holy Synod since about 5 minutes after his election. Ditto the Metropolitan Council and the church staff at the central office. He has repeatedly thumbed his nose at the Synod and blatantly ignored their directives.

This is a nasty case of internal church politics that Jonah’s supporter’s are trying to spin as somehow a fight to keep the OCA from becoming the Eastern Rite of TEO. And that is simply fantasy and propaganda. Dreher is a man who has been in the Church for less than three years and can’t seem to resist being drawn into church political fights. He is attracted to them like a moth to a candle.

But for the record the OCA is crystal clear on the subjects of life and sodomy.

First see “On the Sanctity Marriage” passed by EVERY SINGLE BISHOP. Text is on pp 77 – 78 of the pdf here:
http://oca.org/PDF/16thAAC/16thaac-minutes.pdf

Next see http://oca.org/holy-synod/statements/the-10th-all-american-council/synodal-affirmations-on-marriage-family-sexuality-and-the-sanctity-of-life

And then there is http://oca.org/holy-synod/encyclicals/on-marriage

All of these have been approved by the entirety of the Holy Synod. And it is worth noting that it was a unanimous Holy Synod with the full backing of the Metropolitan Council that asked for Jonah’s resignation. The suggestions that the OCA is soft on life or sexual morality are baseless and frankly rather offensive. I would suggest checking to get all sides of the story before buying into one side’s propaganda relating to an internal church squabble. And I might add a church that unless I am mistaken you do not belong to…

Here is the bottomline. Jonah was not removed because he is pro-life or anti-sodomy. He was sacked because he has been behaving like the Pope. In the Orthodox Church the First Hierarch is the primus inter pares. He did not seem to grasp that his authority flowed from the Holy Synod, not the other way around. That and frankly he was behaving like a jerk in his dealings with a lot of subordinates. Even Dreher has reluctantly acknowledged that Jonah was a bad choice for the office on a number of levels.

When he was first elected I almost jumped out of my chair in joy. I was ecstatic. Like almost everyone else I hoped that this was the end of the long period of scandals we had endured under Herman and Theodosius. Unfortunately it was an attempt to put a square peg in a round hole. It failed.

My only surprise is that the Synod waited for so long before acting. Given some of the crap he pulled he should have been sacked two years ago.

Galletta
July 10, 2012

The TEO has become nothing more than Unitarians with vestments.

bob+
July 10, 2012

I to left tec years ago but now in near retirement I’ve moved to an area with no ACNA church anywhere nearby. So we’ve been going to local tec churches. Like Goddess, my heart breaks as well.

Jeffersonian
July 10, 2012

I’ll say that Kendall talks a good game. Great post.

But he and the rest of the Piskie orthodox are bringing squirt guns to a machine-gun fight. They’re all doomed.

Chip Bounds
July 10, 2012

I read the link above. Unfortunately few facts are known about Vladyka’s resignation. He has been to our. Parish in Mt. Pleasant, sc a number of times — twice in the past year. He isa very Godly man and is loved by all in the Diocese of the South. There are some individuals in the OCA that wish to reinterpret scripture but they are in the minority and the polity of the Church is such that I don’t see it happening. I would also bet that Bp Hilarion will pay the Holy Synod a visit

FW Ken
July 10, 2012

It’s not really about the EO, but the process of gay incursion. GetReligion has a couple of good articles on the coverage, with lots of links to the issues (that’s where I hot that one).

bob
July 10, 2012

The Orthodox haven’t changed one iota. There is nothing to compare between the PECUSA death spasms and the resignation of a bishop in the Orthodox Church. No one thinks the Orthodox are in the same galaxy as PECUSA on any issue. That’s why KJS’ mother became Orthodox and her daughter wanted nothing to do with it. Same story 35 or so years later.

Christopher Johnson
July 10, 2012

Thanks for the clarification, AO. I wondered about that and it’s good to hear that they’re standing firm. I suspect they might have to fight that battle at some point down the road. I’m just glad that it’s not now.

Morosus
July 11, 2012

Reading Kendall’s post, I am proud to be a son of the Diocese of S. Carolina. I am compelled to comment on the inner agony and shame this blatant disregard for the apostolic faith has cause. Blessings upon Bishops Lawrence, Salmon, Skilton, and Allison and the Standing Committee. And Christ have mercy upon us.

Miss Sippi
July 11, 2012

I’m a recent convert to Orthodoxy, so I don’t have any special insight into Met. Jonah’s situation, except to say that many people liked him and are dismayed at these events. As Ad Orientam points out, there is a lot of “stuff” out there on the web about this situation. However, as other posters have noted, there’s a big, big difference here. In spite of its scandals and problems, the Orthodox Church does not have its leadership out there renouncing the fundamentals of the Faith; there’s plenty of sin among us as there is everywhere, but it’s not likely those sinners are saying the Creed with their fingers crossed.
Miss Sippi (aka “LV”)

Christopher Johnson
July 11, 2012

Morosus? You have no conception of how many of the rest of us are and will be praying for South Carolina. To paraphrase James L. Petigru, South Carolina is too small to strike out on its own but too devoted to God and to His Son to be Episcopalian. They’re coming for you. But they’ll never get close to you if we have anything to say about it.

Truth Unites... and Divides
July 11, 2012

“Truth Unites… and Divides
I fear you are getting all your information from the Rod Dreher culture warrior Evangelidox who seem to want to turn Orthodoxy into a byzantine rite of the SBC.”

No. My first exposure to this story came on the GetReligon blog. Then I clicked on some links in that thread (Dreher’s was one of them). And then I clicked on the link that FW Ken provided.

I’m not clear why you’re characterizing Rod Dreher in the way that you have.

“He was sacked because he has been behaving like the Pope. In the Orthodox Church the First Hierarch is the primus inter pares. He did not seem to grasp that his authority flowed from the Holy Synod, not the other way around. That and frankly he was behaving like a jerk in his dealings with a lot of subordinates.”

I don’t know if he did or didn’t act like the Pope. I’d like to know if he was charged with committing a canonical infraction by all the bishops in Holy Synod. Was he?

FW Ken
July 11, 2012

AO -

Thank you for another perspective; I hope it is clear that my point in the link is really really really not about Eastern Orthodoxy, and if it were, I would not equate one rather small American jurisdiction with Orthodoxy in all it’s glory. Jesus promised us that hell itself could not withstand the Church, and that He would be with us, but sometimes that doesn’t apply in local times and places.

And you have my sympathy regarding Rod Dreher. I have been waiting for him to do his magic among the Orthodox, as he did among Catholics for many years. The sad part is that in his Catholic days he was often right, but so wrong in his being right. I sparred with him on Amy Welborn’s blog years ago, and I’m telling you, he’s a nut job.

I will say that any church that lays claim to being the the Church of the New Testament will be filled with problems and failings. Read First Corinthians for some really juicy stuff. So take heart if you have some flaky bishops and priests. It’s a good sign. But you are right to look to the documents and declarations of the Holy Synod, and not the failings of it’s members, whatever they may be (not mine to say).

FW Ken
July 11, 2012

Said badly: Jesus is, of course, always with us, but sometimes the local church declines or dies, as in North Africa when the Muslims conquered.

Truth unites... And divides
July 11, 2012

FW Ken,

Can you provide a link to some threads on Amy Welborn’s blog whereby Rod Dreher shows himself to be a nut job?

LaVallette
July 11, 2012

This day will go down in the annals of the “Alphabet Soup” community as the day when they acheived one of their major objectives:

The subjugation of what they percieve as a major Christian denomination to their will.

“Let the Satan be glad and Hell rejoice”.

For as Jesus said: Matthew 16.26

“26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul?

And all for the disordered and unnatural pelvic inclinations of less than 3% of mankind.

Katherine
July 11, 2012

Dreher’s career has been rather sad to watch. He’s got talent, but he also is easily swayed by the human failings he sees around him. One failing makes a whole church body corrupt, in his eyes, or so it has seemed to me, as he became Catholic, then became Orthodox, and now seems to be souring on that as well. He doesn’t have much of anyplace left to go. Probably what he needs most is prayer.

We’ll need to see what this means in practical terms for South Carolina.

Ed the Roman
July 11, 2012

Rod had made me wonder even when he was at NR, and the circumstances of his departure from Catholicism are such that I’ve had half an eye open to see when he bails on Orthodoxy ever since.

FW Ken
July 11, 2012

TUAD,

The discussions were 10 years and more; Amy has changed her blog name and format at least twice. I did do a google on “Amy Welborn,Rod Dreher” and got some stuff that might interest you. So probably no links. I could tell stories (I got a double dose of him online and in the Dallas Morning News), but maybe some of these other posts may have done that in effect.

Truth Unites... and Divides
July 11, 2012

Ad Orientem: “The suggestions that the OCA is soft on life or sexual morality are baseless and frankly rather offensive. I would suggest checking to get all sides of the story before buying into one side’s propaganda relating to an internal church squabble.”

AO, when I went to the link that FW Ken suggested I left the following comment with these questions:

Nicholas Chancy: “… it just seemed too far-fetched to me that Metropolitan Jonah’s stridency on same-sex marriage could have been a major factor in bringing on this crisis. After all, could Metropolitan Jonah’s conventional Orthodox moral position on such a subject really provoke such animosity among Orthodox Christians?

I assumed that this was clearly impossible, and that there had to be other, more important factors at work. I held that opinion until the day I crossed paths with Inga Leonova on Facebook.

(Me) Unbelievable. The conclusion that I’m drawing from this post is that a militant faction of pro-homosexual Orthodox members, aided and abetted by all the bishops in Synod, have forced the resignation of Metropolitan Jonah. Have I understood this correctly?

Has he committed any canonical infractions? If so, then I could possibly understand why he was requested to resign. But if he resigned because he refused to mute his voice affirming Orthodox Church Tradition that same-sex behavior is sin, and therefore he was politically ousted by a militant pro-homosexual faction enabled by cowardly bishops, then this is a call to arms for all orthodox Orthodox.”

One of my questions is whether I’m drawing an accurate summation and conclusion of what this author Nicholas Chancy is saying.

Mark
July 11, 2012

The Orthodox Church is going to have to fight the same culture as everybody else. But there is no reason to think it will fall. Where does it stand now? Here’s what I think I know.

No one outside the OCA’s Holy Synod knows exactly what happened with Met. Jonah. It’s reasonably certain that some people in positions of power disliked his outspokenness on cultural issues including same sex marriage, but how big a factor was that? I don’t know, and neither does anybody else who’s willing to talk.

Part of the fallout of the controversy over Met. Jonah is that one influential lay leader in the OCA who was strongly opposed to Jonah was outed on the internet as a partnered homosexual. That individual was ousted from his leadership position by his bishop, and he shut down his website which had previously been very influential. The fact that this person rose to a position of power tells you something. So does the fact that he fell from power after his status became public.

There are persistent rumors on the internet that some clergy including some bishops have same sex partners. But none openly acknowledges such a relationship.

There are a handful of lay people who are advocating for change in the church’s teaching on sexuality. And an even smaller handful of clergy who give the impression that they are sympathetic to that group. But I don’t know of even one Orthodox priest or bishop who has publicly declared that the church’s teaching on sex, sexuality and marriage should change.

My conclusion: there is a struggle going on, and this is not at all surprising given the culture we are embedded in. But the church is not anywhere close to changing its official practice and teaching.

Truth Unites... and Divides
July 11, 2012

Mark: “The Orthodox Church is going to have to fight the same culture as everybody else.”

Does that make the Orthodox Church a “culture warrior”? What are the identifying and distinguishing marks of a “culture warrior” anyway? Is it affirming the Manhattan Declaration? Is that sufficient to identify someone as a “culture warrior”?

“That individual was ousted from his leadership position by his bishop, and he shut down his website which had previously been very influential. The fact that this person rose to a position of power tells you something.”

If you don’t mind, what was the name of his website?

Truth Unites... and Divides
July 11, 2012

Mark: “There are a handful of lay people who are advocating for change in the church’s teaching on sexuality. And an even smaller handful of clergy who give the impression that they are sympathetic to that group.”

Did these folks play an instrumental part in Metropolitan Jonah’s resignation?

Truth Unites... and Divides
July 11, 2012

FW Ken: “I sparred with him [Rod Dreher] on Amy Welborn’s blog years ago, and I’m telling you, he’s a nut job.”

(Thanks to Sarah Hey linking me to a thread) I found this comment by Rod Dreher which doesn’t look like the work of a nutjob:

“One thing I learned from watching the Catholic scandal for all those years is that the faithful kept telling themselves that if only the bishops knew, or if only the Pope knew, then these things wouldn’t be happening. Eventually you figure it out: they know. For whatever reason — and I think the reasons can vary from man to man — they choose not to act. The worst ones, well, you can imagine why they didn’t act. The best ones didn’t act out of fear of upsetting the good order of the Church and scandalizing the faithful — a tragic and even contemptible strategy because it allowed rot to spread and entrench itself, and, when the truth was brought to light (and it’s still coming to light), it destroyed in the minds of many what little authority the bishops had. [When I say "destroyed authority," I'm not talking about people believing that their orders are invalid, but rather the belief that the bishops are godly men who can be trusted to do the right thing.]

I know comparatively little about how the OCA operates, but I am certain that what I observed among the Catholic hierarchy is by no means only a Catholic thing, but is rather a human thing. It’s how humans operate. It shocks us, and it should shock us, when it happens in the Church, given what the Church should be.

These days, I am thinking a lot about what a faithful Orthodox theologian friend of mine in Moscow told me a couple of years ago. He said that the rot and corruption in the Moscow Patriarchate is profound. What could a good man do in the face of it? he said. Nothing much. Keep going to liturgy, help out in the local church as you are able, say your prayers, and never lose sight of Christ, and never, ever mistake the pretensions of patriarchs and hierarchs for the way of the Lord. What is the alternative? I think Harry Coin is right, and deeply right: there is no safe harbor. To borrow from Solzhenitsyn, the line between good and evil does not run between churches or between jurisdictions. It runs right down the middle of every church — and every heart.

It’s important to keep a balance between not letting yourself be played by these people, who will use all kinds of theological principles to get you to shut up and look away, and not letting your anger drive you from the Church. I made that mistake before. Not going to let it happen again.”

From HERE

IB Bill
July 11, 2012

Glad I left TEO and even happier I converted to Catholicism. It just keeps getting worse and worse over there. A friend of mine’s parents were both lifelong Episcopalians, and they both drifted away because of the heresies, and didn’t find a home before they passed. In its inclusivity discussion, apparently, TEO ignores these people.

carl
July 11, 2012

I object, sir. I most strenuously object to your metaphor. The Star of the West was not the representative of an illegitimate authority. Nor was South Carolina justified in its rebellion. Nor was South Carolina assaulted. Your metaphor then should be exactly reversed. It is beseiged Ft Sumter surrounded by rebellion that is the proper image for this event. Bishop Lawrence then is properly cast as Major Anderson. He is not the Fire-Eater who fired the first shot.

This re-casting prevents the moral inversion present in your orignal construction. It allows the North to represent the ‘Good Guys.’ Which as we all agree is the natural ordering of American history.

carl
24th Iowa Volunteers
XV Corps
“40 Rounds”

chip johnson
July 11, 2012

[Who] all agree re:the natural ordering of American history?

Tyler
July 11, 2012

FYI Carl, I’d hardly consider an invading army the “good guys” — and when a president gets elected without a singe electorial vote from a southern state there is corruption.

1st Ga State Line

Martial Artist
July 11, 2012

@chip johnson,

I second your question.

Pax et bonum,
Keith Töpfer

dwstroudmd+
July 11, 2012

That’s liberal Carl, there guys. We Sandlappers know the truth: the cadets at the Citadel accidentally fired on the Fort and the Yankees took offence. They haven’t gotten over it yet and practiced total war well before a certain German of infamy by the hand of an arsonist named Sherman.

Bill (not IB)
July 11, 2012

Please, please –

There will never be a way to reconcile those who want to re-fight the Civil War and those who insist they didn’t lose the War of Northern Aggression.

There’s plenty to respect and honor for those who fought on both sides – and let’s not get into trying to define the exceptions to that, which both sides also must acknowledge did occur. Let’s just allow them all to rest in peace.

carl
July 11, 2012

chip johnson

[Who] all agree re:the natural ordering of American history?

Why, that would be all right-thinking Americans, of course.

carl
For Lincoln and Liberty too

Don Janousek
July 11, 2012

“…with this action, the Episcopal Church moves further away from Jesus Christ and his teachings…”

“Further away?” How much “further away” can they move?

About all the distance they have left is constructing a “Child Sacrifice” liturgy to celebrate Holy Abortion Sunday and making Baal an honorary member of the Holy Trinity.

FW Ken
July 11, 2012

doesn’t look like the work of a nutjob

Rod Dreher, the gift that keeps on giving.

http://www.getreligion.org/2012/07/covering-warfare-in-a-byzantine-maze-literally/#comment-292125

Check out the comment above Dreher’s, to which he makes one of his trademark irrelevent insults.

Now, as to the quote by TUAD (above). My first reaction was that no, it didn’t seem the work of a nutjob, but hey, it post-dates my experiences by several years and might represent some maturation.

No, it doesn’t. Rather it demonstrates (as does the comment at GetReligion) a raging authority problem that might be what Ad Orientem refers to as a “culture warrior Evangelidox”. Let me illustrate:

the faithful kept telling themselves that if only the bishops knew, or if only the Pope knew, then these things wouldn’t be happening.

Certainly some faithful kept telling themselves these things, but notice the transition to the faithful. Because, of course, Catholics are stupid, passive slaves to the manipulations of superstitious priestcraft. Everyone knows that. See how Dreher can be right, but so wrong.

Eventually you figure it out: they know.

Well, the urbane, sophisticated journalist knows. In fact, he knows all. Yes, that was snarky, but that’s my experience with him online and reading the Dallas Morning News (which I stopped reading partly because of him).

they choose not to act.

This whole little section raises questions, primarily around what he means by “to act”. The common wisdom is that bishops simply moved priests to unsuspecting parishes where the priests continued to prey on the unsuspecting. That certainly happened, but priests were also removed from ministry, sent to treatment, and reported to the police. I include “treatment” because that demonstrates the failure of bishops, who relied too much on psychology and not enough on the traditional remedies of the Christian Faith. It also demonstrates the core failing in Dreher’s rants: bishops and priests are not the perfect father’s Dreher is looking for. More on that in a moment.

The worst ones, well, you can imagine why they didn’t act.

Because they were complicit in the crimes. Those of you lacking in imagination now know. How many of these were there, by the way? I know of one, and that’s not proven (though I believe it).

The best ones didn’t act out of fear of upsetting the good order of the Church and scandalizing the faithful

This is a professional writer? Crappy sentence, but let’s assume that the lack of action was caused by fear. I think that’s what he meant. I’ve made the point before, but until Oprah made a fortune promoting victim-status and exploiting real victims, psychologists believed that victims were best served by handling these matters quietly. That’s debatable, but of course, bishops should have been all knowing and acted in accordance with how society thinks about things today.

it destroyed in the minds of many what little authority the bishops had … but rather the belief that the bishops are godly men who can be trusted to do the right thing.

That sounds good, but means almost nothing. It betrays a startling lack of practical knowledge of Catholic life and a narrow range of experience with Catholics. Lots of Catholics are grown ups who know their priests are human and fallible. More to say, but this is too long already.

Truth Unites... and Divides
July 11, 2012

Sorry FW Ken,

Perhaps you have a different understanding or a different definition of “nutjob” than I do. If you have more persuasive evidence to show that Dreher is a nutjob, I’ll be happy to read it, but what you’ve shown so far is not enough.

“Rather it demonstrates (as does the comment at GetReligion) a raging authority problem that might be what Ad Orientem refers to as a “culture warrior Evangelidox”.”

What are the identifying marks of a “culture warrior” or a “culture warrior Evangelidox”? Is it affirming the Manhattan Declaration? Is that sufficient to identify someone as a “culture warrior”?

The Editor
July 11, 2012

If I remember correctly, Lincoln did win St. Louis and Gasconade Counties in Missouri. So there’s that.

The Editor
July 11, 2012

Still a good metaphor though, Carl of the small c.

FW Ken
July 11, 2012

TUAD,

Whatever. I have no particular interest in persuading you of anything, but perhaps “immature self-important brat with serious control issues” would work for you. As to “culture warrior” or a “culture warrior Evangelidox” you’ll have to ask Ad Orientem what they mean. He used the terms in this context:

I fear you are getting all your information from the Rod Dreher culture warrior Evangelidox who seem to want to turn Orthodoxy into a byzantine rite of the SBC.

Brilliant. Although I’m jealous because he said in three lines what it took me a long fisk to demonstrate.

I also admire Mark’s comment. Well said.

Bill (not IB), on the other hand, is a spoil sport taking all the fun out a good game of Civil War Redux. :-)

Truth Unites... and Divides
July 11, 2012

FW Ken: “I’ve made the point before, but until Oprah made a fortune promoting victim-status and exploiting real victims, psychologists believed that victims were best served by handling these matters quietly.”

It all depends on the situation.

Here’s Fr. Patrick Henry Reardon’s take on the particular situation at Manton from the same thread:

Fr. Reardon: “Thank you for fulfilling the unpleasant task of bringing these terrible things to light, Father Martin.”

Seconded by the accused nutjob Rod Dreher:

“I second Father Pat’s commendation. There are too many people in the OCA and in every church who would counsel keeping these things quiet “for the good of the Church” (read: for the good of the bishop, or the clergy, or certain factions who stand to lose if the truth were known).

In fact, what Fr. Martin has done here has done far more good for the Church. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.”

Ad Orientem
July 11, 2012

Carl
Well said. Hurrah for the Union and down with the traitors!

Don Janousek
July 11, 2012

The problems in the OCA started years ago when they introduced pews into the churches and let women sing in the choir and do some of the readings in the liturgy.

My jurisdiction, since my conversion to Orthodoxy 29 years ago, the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, has internal disputes and political struggles among the higher clergy from time to time, but the teachings and dogma remain untouched.

A Russian priest once told me not to get involved in high-church politics, as they have been going on since the Council of Jerusalem in 42 A.D. when Paul confronted Peter, and will continue to go on. Only issues of dogma and liturgy are important, plus adherence to the Holy Scripture.

There is no discussion in the ROCOR about same-sex marriages because the very notion itself is beyond any sane or coherent discussion.

Metropolitan Jonah’s problems stem for the problems of his jurisdiction. Along with the Patriarchate of Antioch, the OCA has for some time been a place of refuge for those seeking “Orthodox-Lite.”

However, in the final analysis, the OCA, ROCOR, Antioch and other Orthodox jurisdictions are nowhere near the cesspool where the episcopo gay cult is now swimming.

Mark
July 11, 2012

Don J, the ROCOR parish in my neck of the woods has women in the choir, and the choir director is a woman. Guess you might as well give up.

FW Ken
July 12, 2012

The OCA in this part of the world doesn’t have pews. The Greeks do, as do the WR Antiochens (a formerly Episcopal parish).

No idea about women readers.

[...] I’d love to be a fly on the wall this Sunday at RFEC as they discuss the ramifications of TEC’s latest Unitarian lunge.)  And apart from what I might call the solemn choreography itself, other matters such as [...]

Bill (not IB)
July 12, 2012

Ken,

Civil War? You’re from Texas; surely you know better than that. Failing to use the proper terminology (War of Northern Aggression) is taken very seriously by some folks hereabouts.

FW Ken
July 12, 2012

Sorry, Bill. It was that year in Michigan that ruined me. Mea culpa…

But you have to admit that “War of Northern Aggression Redux” doesn’t have quite the same ring to it.

:-)

Ad Orientem
July 12, 2012

Pews are definitely something I don’t like. But that’s a matter of aesthetics and tradition. It’s not fundamental to the faith. As far as the OCA is concerned the pew thing varies somewhat. In my diocese no new churches are consecrated with pews but some of the older ones have been grandfathered on the subject. And the last time I went to the ROCOR cathedral on Geary St in SF they had a magnificent male and female choir.

Ad Orientem
July 16, 2012

Not sure if anyone is paying any attention to this thread anymore but the topic of Met. Jonah’s resignation has been raised. Bishop Matthias has provided a very clear and sad explanation for the Holy Synod’s actions which may be read here.

http://frted.wordpress.com/2012/07/16/an-explanation-for-metropolitan-jonahs-resignation/

Support The MCJ

Search

Links

Meta