WHAT IT’S ALL ABOUT

Posted by Christopher Johnson | Thursday, March 5th, 2009 | Uncategorized | 65 Comments

Goofball liturgies are to the Episcopal Organization what apples are to an apple tree.  Pretty much de rigueurTim Fountain found this baptismal thing(Word file) which seems to have been written in San Francisco.  He takes care of the theology problems.  I, however, was fascinated by this part:

TRIPUDIUM TO THE FONT

Deacon A(steps onto platform) – We will go to the font in step, singing (name of hymn), found on your colored sheet.  Make sure and bring your baptism booklet. The step is very simple; if you’ll look at all of us up here, we will show you how it goes.

Starting on your right foot, go right, left, right, back;
(demonstrate)
right, left, right, back;
right left, right, back.

Please place your hand on the shoulder of the person in front of you.

___________(Cantor), will tell us when to step off.

Cantor – When we get to the word ”______________,” please step off on your right foot and start the right, left, right, back pattern.

Cantor leads the Tripudium, cues people to move at the right time, calls for additional stanzas if needed to get everyone to the Font.

When I read that, I immediately thought about the day of your baptism.  Maybe the whole family’s in town, both sets of grandparents and cousins from all over.  Maybe your dad brought the ol’ camcorder along and recorded the whole thing for family posterity.  After all, it’s a big event.

Years later, maybe there’s been a big snowstorm, everything’s closed down and you, your parents and your siblings are in for the duration.  Somebody suggests getting out the family DVD’s which delights you since you always get a kick out of watching them.

After watching your brothers and sisters grow up, they get to you.  You see your birth and the frantic first few days of your life on Earth.  You see everything because your dad filmed everything; a regular James Lileks, your dad is.

Then your mom slides in another one.  “This,” she says with obvious maternal pride, “is your baptism.”

You’ve never seen it before so you get right down in front of the TV.  But after watching it for several minutes, you turn to your parents with alarm.  “Mom?!  Dad?!” you exclaim.  “You never told me that you had St. Vitus Dance!!”

“What a silly thing to say,” your mom tells you.  “Why in the world would you think that?”

“Were you all hopped up on goofballs there?”

“Of course not.”

“Then why in the world are you doing the hokey-pokey at my baptism?”

“That’s not the hokey-pokey.  That’s called the Tripudium.  Tripudium is a word that means joy or rejoicing.”

“I know that[you were a bright kid].  But you still haven’t answered my question.  Why were you doing this BazookaGum…”

“Tripudium.”

“…Tripudium at my baptism?”

“It was just a way to express our joy and happiness.  Praise doesn’t have to be only in words, you know?”

“I know that.  But let me get this straight.  In order to express joy at a baptism, telling God how happy you are or just laughing or smiling or sitting there looking goofy doesn’t cut it anymore?  In order to express joy at a baptism, you need to do this WhamBamThankYouMaam…”

“Tripudium.”

“…Tripudium?  You can only praise God and bring a kid into the church by walking like John Cleese?”

I don’t know know about you but my attachment to the family religious tradition would start to seriously weaken right about here.

65 Comments to WHAT IT’S ALL ABOUT

Dilbertnomore
March 5, 2009

“please step off on your right foot”

The screwups start at the very beginning. Everybody knows all close order drill begins with stepping off with the LEFT foot. Cheeeeesh.

Of course, this is TEC, so …………………..

captainyips
March 5, 2009

Dare I say it? Do they have a minister of silly walks?

Tankerman
March 5, 2009

I was thinking that it sounded like a high school reunion when everyone hits the sauce a little too strongly and then the “Electric Slide” spontaneously breaks out. Or maybe it’s the “Boot Scootin’ Boogie” for all the country fans.

Antique
March 5, 2009

Heavens to Murgatroyd!

An amateur theatrical production. Scripted directions, even!

Exit, stage left!

OK, OK. But where’s the directions that say:

On the 2nd right step, bend the knee and lean forward a little, bouncing once. Then, on the step backward, lean way back, from the waist. Then everyone shout, “Hey, Macarena!” Slap the person’s bottom in front of you (left cheek), and on beat 4, slap the other cheek. On 1, hands back on shoulder and repeat.

Branford
March 5, 2009

This is a joke, right??? Please???

Paula Loughlin
March 5, 2009

Do you think this vision of hell will be enough to bring people to repentence Chris? Or do you plan to include the audio as well?

Daniel Muller
March 5, 2009

I felt so gullible downloading the document to see that it did not have the hokey-pokey that must have occurred to Mr. Johnson in a fit of silliness, but it is really all there! I am gobsmacked.

One consolation is that, considering the circumstances, this “liturgy” may never have actually taken place more than once, if at all.

Donald R.Janousek
March 5, 2009

After reading this, two things came into my mind. First, where did they get the word “Tripudium?” I don’t recall it from Scripture or any of the Church Fathers, and, second, in the time-hallowed words of my dear aunt Thelma in Alabama, “Y’all’s crazy.”

Alasdair
March 5, 2009

No joke people they even have a rock just outside the door as a font from which water pours like a Japanese Rock Garden.

The there is the Shinto Shrine that is used as a Tabernacle.

One of the former ‘Co-Rectors’ has a degree in Asian Art and a collection to go with it hence all the weird Asian items.

The is also the Coptic Orthodoxy ‘Umbrello’ to escort the Deacon and the Gospel.

cheyan
March 5, 2009

Apparently they dance it for weddings and funerals, too. I can see it being embarrassing to explain to wedding guests, but I can’t begin to imagine explaining it to those attending a funeral.

I also notice, for funerals,
“Clergy Process to seating area and place cremains and other objects at Shinto shrine.” Which, um, seems a little out of place.

For both weddings and funerals, but not for baptisms, they sing the Sh’ma, apparently in Hebrew. I’m not sure why – it seems an odd addition, unless it’s always part of their, uh, liturgies, in which case it’s still odd but not as odd as only having it at weddings and funerals.

cheyan
March 5, 2009

It appears, from going through the rest of the site, that they do sing the Sh’ma at all of their liturgies. So at least they’re consistently weird.

For that matter, they dance the Tri-hokey-pudi-pokey-um at all their liturgies too.

Mark
March 6, 2009

Sounds like this originated at St. Gregory of Nyssa parish in San Francisco. I have never set foot in the place, but have been told that the dance described here is done every Sunday… it’s how they go to communion.

Truth Unites... and Divides
March 6, 2009

CJ: “I don’t know know about you but my attachment to the family religious tradition would start to seriously weaken right about here.”

Sarah Hey: “I’m a conservative Episcopalian, staying in TEC, and interested in doing more than just sitting around and saying “ain’t it awful.”

Michael D
March 6, 2009

Isn’t this called a “Conga Line?”

Marie Blocher
March 6, 2009

Let’s all do the Time Warp again!

Scott+
March 6, 2009

“dad brought the ol’ camcorder along” Is that something like a movie camera? I do not think they allowed flash bulbs in the church at the time.

The Little Myrmidon
March 6, 2009

Coming Soon!! The Liturgy of the Chicken Dance!

La, la LAAAA!, la-la-la; la, la laaaa, la-la, la-la!!

Russell
March 6, 2009

The Tripudium! Such a banal thing with such a grand Latin name. Only a Nashotah House graduate can truly appreciate the magnificene of the hieghts of this achievement.

The Little Myrmidon
March 6, 2009

This is the same bunch of loons that we were poking (hokey-pokeying) fun at yesterday, right? Exploring the St. Gregory of Nyssa, SF webpage, I found this:

GOD BUILT THIS CHURCH TO HONOR YOU
Sermon at the Dedication of St. Gregory’s Church, San Francisco,
October 23, 1995

by Richard Fabian

“…First of all: we didn’t build this building–and Lord knows we haven’t paid for it! It is clear to me that God built this building, to honor some friends of God’s. In particular God built this building to honor God’s friend Gregory of Nyssa….” (emphasis added)

Oh please! God built the church to honor those who built it? The circularity of this logic is stunning. Poor Gregory of Nyssa seems only to be an afterthought. Silly people.

Katherine
March 6, 2009

I know y’all say you’ve downloaded this, but I’m still having a hard time believing Chris isn’t pulling my leg. This is just so over-the-top that it sounds like the Onion.

Robb
March 6, 2009

TUaD,
Was that slam necessary? I am staying also. Want to arm wrestle?

midwestnorwegian
March 6, 2009

WAY too many male pronouns in this setting, but I’m sure TEC could REVISE it to their liking. TEC: Run toward the blast” I say….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va3Z5cJKKE0

Truth Unites... and Divides
March 6, 2009

Robb,

Why are you staying? Have you considered that by staying you are (perhaps unintentionally) enabling and aiding and abetting the gross heresy and apostasy in TEc? You may ask, “How am I enabling it?”

One answer (among possibly several others): By deliberately and adamantly insisting on being yoked with these institutional heretics and apostates, you are enabling them to declare that what they are doing is really not that bad because after all you and other so-called “conservatives” are still part of TEc. You enable them to declare that their practices, doctrines, beliefs, and teachings are a matter of indifference because if it wasn’t, then all the staunchly so-called “orthodox” followers of Christ in TEc would leave because they couldn’t stand for the profane and continued blaspheming of Christ, God’s Holy Name, and His Glory.

As Sasha has said previously, a good Christian cannot be a member of the KKK or Planned Parenthood or TEc. Because the *action* and *behavior* of declaring to the world that you are a member of those organizations speak far, far, far louder than any muttering objections that you have about the practices and teachings of these organizations.

Wanna blog wrestle?

Peter C.
March 6, 2009

Robb, you’re staying in TEC? Better learn the Hustle and a whole new meaning to “love thy neighbor.”

Christopher Hathaway
March 6, 2009

Given the abysmal idiocy that flows out of the mouths of KJS and her army of flying monkeys this really shows that TEC “walks the talk”.

Martha
March 6, 2009

Christopher, at least for those baptised as infants, they can blame their parents when the home videos are pulled out.

What about the misfortunate souls who were baptised as adults? 😉

cheyan, at least this kind of carry-on would fit in at a wedding (funniest thing I ever saw was at a cousin’s wedding, when everyone was trying to dance “The Siege of Ennis” and laughing their backsides off at how epically they failed). But you’re right – I would love to hear the explanation for this at a funeral (“And now, dearly beloved, as we mourn the passing of our brother John, eeeeeeverybody salsa!!!!”)

Oh, well: at least the rite does involve the pouring of water and the Trinitarian formula. You can always be conditionally baptised later 🙂

The young fogey
March 6, 2009

Don’t forget the great Anglican irony: heresy and, sometimes, unofficially, on the ground, apostasy but with far better production values than suburban Novus Ordo RC. (All that artsy-fartsy old-fashioned stuff old WASPs like: art, music, architecture, vesture, ceremonial.) IOW unitarians who worship like I do!

Marshall Hahn
March 6, 2009

Thanks for the laugh! But I think there must be a typo – isn’t supposed to be the “Tripupium”. Any congregation so rhythmically-challenged that they need DIRECTIONS to sway in time with da beat are not going to be able to maintain it for long before someone hits the floor.

Allen Lewis
March 6, 2009

This is just sooooo precious! God must be beaming from ear to ear because of all his friends at All Saints, Pasadena!

As someone before me said: “I am gobsmacked!

Robb
March 6, 2009

TUaD
Let me posit a couple of reasons for my staying: First, the Living God led me to this church many years ago. I do not have the sense that he would have me leave now, or perhaps, yet. I will know it if he bids me leave. I am after all, an “Old Soldier” and obeying orders in in my DNA. Second, I am a Eucharist Visitor. As you know, those of us blessed with this duty take communion to those who can not attend services. Usually, they are old and frequently infirmed. Many that I visit have not been able to attend services for months and in some cases years.
The graditutide these folks express when we bring chuch to them is almost indescribable. So, TUaD, I would ask, would you rather have the EV visit them and talk about the wonderful and diverse thing TEC is doing or does it not seem right that I, a traditionist visit and discuss the gospel reading and other readings from the service?
Those of you that have left-God Bless you all. I wish you had not but you must do what seems best for you. But please try to understand; Those of us who are staying might, just might, have good reasons.
Naw, no blog wrestling. You would whop me hands down.

Matthew
March 6, 2009

Robb,

TUaD is relentless in posting his disdain for Sarah Hey (she snubbed him and apparently he can’t get over it). That seems to be part and parcel of his dislike of those who are still Episcopalian.

The best argument against fringe Anglicanism is the prickliness of so many of the fringies. In the end it will all sort itself out as the warm and welcoming Anglican churches grow and the naysaying Anglicans shrivel and die.

I say stay until you’ve had enough. When you, informed by prayer and reason, feel drawn into some other church, then go in peace.

Branford
March 6, 2009

Robb – I have left (wanted to get my child out) but I do respect your reasons for staying. When I read about your ministry I thought of my mother (almost 80) who will never leave TEC because it has always been her church and her family lies in the church yard – she still is able to go to church but if some day she can’t, I hope that she has someone like you to bring her the eucharist. Thank you.

Dr. Mabuse
March 6, 2009

Can’t be the hokey-pokey; that’s done in a circle. This “Tripudendum” sounds like some kind of procession, so it can only be…The Bunny Hop! And I’ll bet they do the chicken dance during the Litany, right?

R. Scott Purdy
March 6, 2009

Limbo under the altar rail.

Michael D
March 6, 2009

Oh, R. Scott, that is very funny. Very funny, and probably already been done somewhere.

Laura R.
March 6, 2009

“I say stay until you’ve had enough. When you, informed by prayer and reason, feel drawn into some other church, then go in peace.”

Well said, Matthew.

The Little Myrmidon
March 6, 2009

Dr. Mabuse, you are so right. The Litany of the Sacred Bunny Hop. What I’m wondering is how does anyone process to this thing? The instructions are:

Starting on your right foot, go right, left, right, back;
(demonstrate)
right, left, right, back;
right left, right, back.

Am I reading this right? You go to the right, then to the left, then back to the right and then go back a step? How do you go forward?

Oh, wait, stupid me – the font must be at the rear of the church? So everyone sort of “Conga-line”s backwards towards the Narthex?

The Little Myrmidon
March 6, 2009

Also, I keep getting images of Huey, Dewey and Louie doing the Reindeer Samba.

Duane
March 6, 2009

Old white people with no rythym doing the Electric Slide….priceless!

Truth Unites... and Divides
March 6, 2009

Robb: “So, TUaD, I would ask, would you rather have the EV visit them and talk about the wonderful and diverse thing TEC is doing or does it not seem right that I, a traditionist visit and discuss the gospel reading and other readings from the service?”

#1. You can still visit these folks and discuss the Gospel reading without being a member of TEc (or them being a member of TEc for that matter as well). For instance, you could be a member of an ACNA church or ACNA church plant or a Continuing Church who does visitations.

#2. These folks may, when they pass on, leave a not insignificant gift or bequest to a revisionist apostate parish, diocese, TEc. These monies will then be used for the furtherance of gross heresy, apostasy, and ungodly lawsuits and depositions. As they leave part of their legacy with TEc, it will be legacy too, Robb.

Is that what you want? In summary, you can still provide joy, comfort, and encouragement to these folks while ensuring that it need not be under the auspices of heretically apostate TEc.

Lastly, I heartily salute your warm-hearted service to those unable to do the “tripudium”.

——–

Matthew,

Don’t be so stupid. It’s not so much about Sarah Hey personally per se; it’s more about her being an ardent Institutionalist-Enabler of soul-destroying apostasy and heresy.

SouthCoast
March 6, 2009

“Shinto shrine”??? So, like, they venerate the Emperor of Japan? (And probably complain about Catholics and the Pope!)

Truth Unites... and Divides
March 6, 2009

“As they leave part of their legacy with TEc, it will be legacy too, Robb.”

Typo. Rewrite: “As they leave part of their monied legacy with TEc, it will be your legacy too, Robb. Do you want that to be a part of your legacy whereby you financially helped and *enabled* revisionist, God-mocking TEc through the gifts and bequests of those you ministered to through the Episcopal Visitor program?”

Janjan
March 6, 2009

Tripudium thru the tulips…..

Robb
March 6, 2009

TUaD
Nope to all you saith. I live in a small town in New England. No other option for me aside from my parish. Sure, I can visit these folks. But in a private capacity could not bring The Church and communion. IMVHO, the efficacy of the sacrament is not spoiled by what 815 et al. does. As far as your comment about those folks leaving money to the church, well, again INVHO it is akin in some ways to my pledge to my parish. Our God enjoins us to bring our tithes and offering to the storehouse (Malachi 3:10). I would bet my dollar to your dognut
that all was not kosher (pun intended) in the Temple when God presented this truth to his people. It seems likely that there was, at times, bad theology, no theology
and perhaps criminal enterprises (money changers) at the Temple. I can find no scripture that lets us off this hook. Well, I suppose it could be in St Pauls lost 4th letter to the Mississipians but… For me the Storehouse is my Parish. At my parish we are allowed to designate that our individual pledge stay at the parish and some of us do that.
I know, there is probably off-set monies going to the diocese and 815 but there is nothing I can do at present about that. And that is on them, not me. We will all give an account to God with regards to our monies and other received blessings from him.
Anyhoo, in my very imperfect way I try to follow as He leads. I am blessed to be an EV from my parish and I trust those who receive our visits are blessed by receiving the Eucharist.
That is it from me. I will tell you that I have never stayed at a Holiday Inn Express but I do on occasion stop at a yurt when my wife and I x-c ski.
My thanks to those who understand and made very kind comments above.
Robb

Robbo
March 6, 2009

It’s definitely a Conga line, although I suppose in N.T. Greek it might be “Konga” as in “Konga Eleison”.

tjmcmahon
March 6, 2009

Can’t wait to see how many bishops stay away from Lambeth 2018 when they announce that tripudium sessions have replaced indaba.
Tripudium, as I recall, is Latin for joy or rapture. I would have thought that a rapturous dance of joy would be something a little more interesting than right-left-right-back.

Truth Unites... and Divides
March 6, 2009

“I live in a small town in New England. No other option for me aside from my parish.

If you don’t mind, what other churches are in your and nearby your small New England town?

I know, there is probably off-set monies going to the diocese and 815 but there is nothing I can do at present about that. And that is on them, not me.

Yes and no.

“I am blessed to be an EV from my parish and I trust those who receive our visits are blessed by receiving the Eucharist.

Has there ever been a thread on the MCJ about the capital-E Eucharist? For example, do the Catholics and the Orthodox agree with the Episcopalians that a TEc priest or priestess has valid apostolic succession and is a validly ordained to confect the elements so that parishioners can receive the capital-E Eucharist?

“That is it from me.”

Thanks for what you have shared Robb. It’s an interesting perspective.

bob
March 6, 2009

Here’s the Rite One version……..
Hey, the 70’s are here to stay.

Riff Raff:
It’s astounding
Time is fleeting
Madness takes its toll
But listen closely

Magenta:
Not for very much longer

Riff Raff:
I’ve got to keep control
I remember doing the time warp
Drinking those moments when
The blackness would hit me

Riff Raff & Magenta:
And the void would be calling

All:
Let’s do the time warp again
Let’s do the time warp again

Narrator:
It’s just a jump to the left

All:
And then a step to the right

Narrator:
Put your hands on you hips

All:
You bring your knees in tight
But it’s the pelvic thrust that really drives you insane
Let’s do the time warp again
Let’s do the time warp again

Magenta:
It’s so dreamy
Oh fantasy free me
So you can’t see me, no not at all
In another dimension
With voyeuristic intention
Well secluded
I see all

Riff Raff:
With a bit of a mind flip

Magenta:
You’re into the time slip

Riff Raff:
And nothing can ever be the same

Magenta:
You’ve spaced out of sensation

Riff Raff:
Like you’re under sedation.

All:
Let’s do the time warp again
Let’s do the time warp again

Columbia:
Well I was walking down the street just having a think
When a snake of a guy gave me an evil wink
He shook-a me up, He took me by surprise
He had a pick up truck and the devil’s eyes
He stared at me and I felt a change
Time meant nothing, never would again

All:
Let’s do the time warp again
Let’s do the time warp again

Narrator:
It’s just a jump to the left

All:
And then a step to the right

Narrator:
Put your hands on your hips

All:
You bring your knees in tight
But it’s the pelvic thrust
That really drives you insane

Let’s do the time warp again
Let’s do the time warp again

Send “Time Warp” Ringtone to your Cell

Christopher Hathaway
March 6, 2009

Has there ever been a thread on the MCJ about the capital-E Eucharist? For example, do the Catholics and the Orthodox agree with the Episcopalians that a TEc priest or priestess has valid apostolic succession and is a validly ordained to confect the elements so that parishioners can receive the capital-E Eucharist?

It’s a good question, as Robb poses a strong moral dilemna. But what exactly is it that makes a eucharist valid. Can a blantantly heretical church have valid eucharists? Does the vailidity of the eucharist have anything to do with the validity of the church celebrating it? The idea of a “valid” eucharist absent a connection with a valid church is a question that bears some examination. Can TEC be classified as a valid church anymore? I think so that is not so clear. Why could not the communion delivered by an EV come from a Presbyterian or a Baptist, provided you could get them to use wine? I serve at a Congregational church that uses wine in the eucharist. We use the 1979 BCP. I would hazard that our eucharist is every bit as valid as one coming from a heretical TEC parish. It is, after all, not the priest that transforms the elements but the Grace of God. If his sheep need feeding I think he can work around the strict rules the church lives by.

Any thoughts on this?

As for leaving TEC or staying, well the reasons for leaving just keep mounting. This event alone would not be enough. The fact is that silly things like this go on even in the Catholic Church, though Chris is right to point out that Episcopalians can trump any sillyness by a stray RC Barney priest.

But the main difference between RC sillyness and TEC sillyness is that good Catholics can look to their Magesterium and tell themselves “That idiocy is not true catholicism”. Episcopalians can’t do that. There is nothing authoritatively above us.

Some may protest, “The AC and the Primates are above TEC”. Well, not really. That authoritative structure may one day exist, and TEC may be disciplined by it. But the Communion was not originally set up that way. The liberals are right that we are trying to make the Communion something it wasn’t, in response of course to their making of the faith something it wasn’t and something it mustn’t be. But the fact is that as it now stands that sillyness we are decrying has every right to call itself authentically Episcopalian as a conservative. More perhaps, because the leadership structure at the top of TEC affirm that idiocy more than the traditional faith.

Face it, my conservative brothers and sisters still in TEC. You are no more the legitimate representatives of TEC. A sodomite in a clown costume is. The church of your faith is dead and gone. It is no more. It has ceased to be. It is an exchurch.

You are aliens, within your own church home. If you can live with that Godspeed.

Intercessor
March 6, 2009

Hey…. Macarena!!
Intercessor

Ed the Roman
March 6, 2009

For example, do the Catholics and the Orthodox agree with the Episcopalians that a TEc priest or priestess has valid apostolic succession and is a validly ordained to confect the elements so that parishioners can receive the capital-E Eucharist?

Executive summary: we don’t.

Technical details: this is because:

1. Catholics don’t agree that ANY TEC clergy have Apostolic Succession.
2. I don’t think the Orthodox do either.
3. In any case the Catholics have defined ordaining women as impossible, and the Orthodox at a bare minimum would say it is an innovation requiring an Ecumenical Council to approve. Which none has.

But when Anglicans really come to care what either Rome or Constantinople think on this issue, which part of Anglicanism to be in stops being the question.

Bill2
March 6, 2009

The Orthodox do not have a single opinion on Anglican orders, but the most common answer is: We aren’t in communion so we don’t know. There have been past opinions that recognized that Anglican orders would be considered valid if communion were established, but those opinions were before WO. Most Orthodox opinions on WO I’ve read are similar to JPII’s.

Robb
March 6, 2009

There is much to admire about the Latin Church and I do enjoy fine fellowship with my RC brothers and sisters. But our See is Canterbury not Rome so it is of no moment to me if Rome does not recognize our orders. But it would would be
great if we all could, at some future date, meet at the Lord’s Table.

Ed the Roman
March 6, 2009

Robb, I just answered a question is all. I wouldn’t expect Anglicans to care much what we think. But somebody asked.

And to clarify, JPII’s answer on WO was that the Church can no more ordain women than it can consecrate angel food cake and Courvoisier, or baptise with Cranapple.

Robb
March 6, 2009

I understood that Ed. If my post sounds snarky, I apologize. Did not mean it that way.

Ed the Roman
March 6, 2009

Not snarky, just didn’t want to come across giving a “get with the program” speech.

Sinner
March 7, 2009

Can a blantantly heretical church have valid eucharists?

No.

Does the vailidity of the eucharist have anything to do with the validity of the church celebrating it?

Well yes. The church has to have the intention of celebrating a validly Christian Eucharist. ECUSA no longer has that intention.

Can TEC be classified as a valid church anymore?

No.

I think so that is not so clear.

I think it is very clear indeed!

I would hazard that our eucharist is every bit as valid as one coming from a heretical TEC parish.

SInce an heretical TEC parish does not and cannot offer a eucharist to Christ (to Buddha or Dagon, well that’s another matter) I’m sure your eucharist is rather more valid

Truth Unites... and Divides
March 7, 2009

Christopher Hathaway: “Can a blantantly heretical church have valid eucharists? Can TEC be classified as a valid church anymore?”

Robb: “IMVHO, the efficacy of the sacrament is not spoiled by what 815 et al. does.”

—————-

Hmmmmmm, Christopher Hathaway has posed interesting questions for us to ponder. Particularly with respect to “conservative” Eucharist Visitors from TEc to the old and infirm. The questions suggest that there might be a placebo effect at work here, whereby the partakers believe they’re receiving a valid Eucharist from a valid church, but instead they’re actually receiving a mock substitute from a blatantly heretical church.

If so, could an argument be made that this is spiritual malpractice? Or is it “okay” and “acceptable” since the partakers believe it is a genuine Eucharist from a genuinely valid church? And what of the TEc EV assisting and enabling this to occur? Any moral culpability?

Katherine
March 7, 2009

From the Roman point of view, the communion at Robb’s parish isn’t valid. But, viewed from an Anglican eye, if his priest is a validly ordained Anglican priest, then the Eucharist which he carries to the elderly is the Body of the Lord. I would, myself, be uneasy about it if his priest is a woman, because the Church through two millennia has not felt that women can be validly ordained.

At some point, though, the parish will be so polluted by an inappropriate priest and bishop that the Eucharist, even from an Anglican point of view, will no longer be valid. We need to leave folks like Robb to make their own judgments about this, lest we be also judged.

bob
March 7, 2009

Bill, There isn’t an Orthodox Church on earth that thinks Anglicans have a priesthood. It’s “Baptisms” like the one we’re commenting on that make it ever more likely that Anglicans who convert to Orthodox Christianity will be baptised rather than be received by chrismation (As Katherine Schori’s mother was in the late 70’s) in the future. Be sure that a cleric who becomes Orthodox is received as a *layman* and possibly (not always) ordained if he is to be an Orthodox priest. The old days of Orthodox agnosticism on Anglican orders were from an era when Anglicans had something resembling a 2000 year old belief system. They have since come much more, so to speak, “clean” about things.

Donald R.Janousek
March 7, 2009

Anglican priestly orders were declared to be invalid by Pope Leo XIII late in the nineteenth century, and, therefore, lack apostolic succession. As an Orthodox Christian, I concur with Bob’s statement above that there is no Orthodox jurisdiction, excluding “kooks” who use “Orthodox” in their names, that recognizes Anglican priestly orders as valid. There was some dialogue between the Orthodox and the Anglicans in the nineteenth century which was initiated by the Anglicans on the premise that they and the Orthodox had a common bond against the “renovations” of Rome, but nothing came of it. Again I agree with Bob that it is very likely that Anglican converts to Orthodoxy would be re-baptized, or, from the Orthodox standpoint, validly baptized for the first time. This would especially be true if the “priest” who did the Anglican “baptism” was a woman or, perhaps, a public and unrepentant sinner a la V.G. Robinson. However, due to the autonomy in Orthodoxy, unlike the hierarchical structure of Rome, each case of a convert would be evaluated separately by the particular bishop and the decision on whether or not to “re-baptize” would be that of the bishop. But, due to the long-standing consensus among the Orthodox, including Orthodox theologians, that Anglican priestly orders, and, most likely, all Anglican purported mysteries, or, as the Romans say, sacraments, are also invalid, it would be a very exceptional case where mere Chrismation would be used. The position has especially solidified after the “ordination” of women by Anglicans and was further solidified by the appointment of a practicing homosexual as a bishop. Of course, abandoing the Creed and engaging in “conga lines” during liturgies further increases the gulf between both the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics vis-a-vis the Anglicans.

Alice C. Linsley
March 7, 2009

This is one reason I’m glad to be in the Orthodox Church now where we use the liturgies of St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil the Great, and St. James of Jerusalem. Sometimes in the glow of the Divine Liturgy I forget that I’m still on earth.

Truth Unites... and Divides
March 8, 2009

Robb, TEc Eucharist Visitor: “IMVHO, the efficacy of the sacrament is not spoiled by what 815 et al. does.

Christopher Johnson provides this answer, “The Episcopal Organization and the Anglican Organization of Canada are still Christian in a meaningful sense of that term” as an example to the statement

CONCEPTS THAT SOUND PLAUSIBLE BUT DON’T STAND UP UNDER SCRUTINY

Christopher Hathaway asks: “Can a blantantly heretical church have valid eucharists? Can TEC be classified as a valid church anymore?”

Robb
March 8, 2009

OK. A final, really, really, final coment(s)
The Church, the Bride of Christ is more then just people. In a numinous sense
She is much more then that. To paraphase St Gestault, The Church is greater then the sum of her parts.

Forsooth, lads and ladettes, the deponent saith further not!

Robb
March 8, 2009

dang it….paraphrase

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