ROAD BOWLING

Posted by Christopher Johnson | Thursday, February 5th, 2009 | Uncategorized | 53 Comments

Apparently, standing still is the same as moving.  “Conservative” Anglican primates seem to be delighted with how Alexandria turned out:

High marks have been awarded to Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams and the 2009 primates’ meeting by conservative archbishops, who report that consensus was reached following four days of intense talks in Alexandria, Egypt.
 
“Archbishop Peter Akinola is pleased, I’m pleased, Henry [Orombi] is pleased” with the outcome of the meeting, the Presiding Bishop of the Southern Cone, the Most Rev. Gregory Venables, told The Living Church.
 
“Something like the freshness of the Holy Spirit” descended upon the meeting, Bishop Venables explained. There was “something different here, something special,” he said. “Without a doubt there was a lot of anger and tension,” he added, but the “orthodox had a calmness and peace” that Bishop Venables attributed to divine intervention.
 
Why?  Because conservatives got exactly the same thing that they got the last two times the primates met?  Because Dr. Williams, mirabile dictu, suggested talking?  Because all the primates did was to throw that solid metal ball down the road again?
 
The closing communiqué recognized the “mistrust” within the Communion, reaffirmed Lambeth 1.10 as the agreed statement on human sexuality, continued the moratorium on rites for the blessing of same-sex unions and the consecration of same-sex bishops. It also affirmed the call for a halt to cross-province violations. The meeting agreed that the members of the breakaway groups in the United States and Canada are Anglicans, but did not define their status.
 
Both primates agreed that a legislative or legal solution would not resolve the splits as two different faiths were in contention. “A liberal expression of Christianity is not Christianity [as we know it],” Bishop Venables said. Addressing this gap needs to take place before structural or legislative solutions are imposed on the church.
 
Have conservative Anglicans been played?  It sure feels like it.
 
The question of recognizing a parallel province in North America was premature, both primates said, because the underlying theological differences had not been addressed. 
 
“Being an Anglican without knowing Jesus” conferred membership “in a club” and not in the true church, Archbishop Orombi said. Before a vote on a third province is taken, he said, “we have to see what happens to the Communion.”
 
Archbishop Orombi said he hoped that a theological council would be called by Archbishop Williams that could devote the time and expertise to engage in these issues.
 
“My proposal is, let’s have two sets of theologians and debate these things,” he said. “Primates don’t have the time,” and the primates’ meetings are not the proper venue for these issues.
 
Nevertheless, orthodox Anglicans should hang in there for…some reason.
 
The two primates urged traditionalists in the United States to take heart from the agreement and both pledged the support of their provinces until a “safe place” had been established for them. Archbishop Orombi urged traditionalists to make their case to Archbishop Williams, as to why they needed a province. Traditionalists must “hold together, remain together” and persevere in their fight, “for we are standing with you,” he said.
 
Orombi hopes two groups of theologians will sit down and talk this out?  Orombi doesn’t know if more theological babbling is definitely on the agenda? 
 
And how long do these theologians keep talking?  Until the next primates meeting in two years?  No, can’t be that since that’s not the “proper venue” to decide this sort of thing. 
 
What about the 2018 Lambeth Conference?  Well, nothing was decided at the last one so whoever is the Archbishop of Canterbury then will no doubt see to it that nothing much is decided in 2018 either except that we all need to keep babbling some more.
 
Let’s be blunt here.  Dr. Williams and rest of the Anglican Communion leadership have no interest in EVER solving this problem.  All this yammering will never end until one thing is achieved.  People like me get fed up and go away.
 
As for a parallel province, I’ve got four words for you.  Cold day in hell.  The Windsor Continuation Group basically came out and admitted that ACNA will not be recognized in the lifetime of anyone reading this:
 
The WCG therefore recommends that the Archbishop of Canterbury, in consultation with the Primates, establish at the earliest opportunity a professionally mediated conversation at which all the significant parties could be gathered. The aim would be to find a provisional holding arrangement which will enable dialogue to take place and which will be revisited on the conclusion of the Covenant Process, or the achievement of long term reconciliation in the Communion. Such a conversation would have to proceed on the basis of a number of principles: 

* There must be an ordered approach to the new proposal within, or part of a natural development of, current rules.
* It is not for individual groups to claim the terms on which they will relate to the Communion.
* The leadership of the Communion needs to stand together, and find an approach to which they are all committed.
* Any scheme developed would rely on an undertaking from the present partners to ACNA that they would not seek to recruit and expand their membership by means of proselytisation. WCG believes that the advent of schemes such as the Communion Partners Fellowship and the Episcopal Visitors scheme instituted by the Presiding Bishop in the United States should be sufficient to provide for the care of those alienated within the Episcopal Church from recent developments.

The Primates know what the problem is.  And they’ve had over five years to actually move in the direction of beginning to do something about it.  But window-dressing aside, Anglicans are in exactly the same place they were when Robbie got his pointy hat. 
 
If the primates haven’t gotten anywhere near an actual action yet, they never will.  If the generals don’t want to fight, there is no reason for the rank-and-file to continue to waste their time.

53 Comments to ROAD BOWLING

William Tighe
February 5, 2009

There is an English vulgar word that describes these guys perfectly; what w****rs.

Ed the Roman
February 5, 2009

I shall stay away from SF for a while. I would be overcome with “I told you so.”

Paula Loughlin
February 5, 2009

“who report that consensus was reached following four days of intense talks in Alexandria, Egypt.”

“You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means”

DJH
February 5, 2009

Inconceivable!

Branford
February 5, 2009

Kevin Kallsen of AnglicanTV has done interviews in Egypt with ++Orombi and ++Venables that he is currently editing. Once they’re up for viewing, it will be interesting to see what those Primates say to him and if it corresponds to the Living Church article. (But of course, I say “interesting” as someone who last summer swam the Tiber.)

Steve L.-
February 5, 2009

Lets just form a New Anglican Communion with the GAFCON folks and stop the obsession with remaining in communion with false teachers.

Christopher Johnson
February 5, 2009

It’ll never happen. Akinola, Orombi and Venables are all GAFCON primates already and if the three of them are happy with this sham, what would be the point?

obituary
February 5, 2009

Well I’d say that’s it for the whole structure. Anglicanism is a spent force. I am disappointed to say the least. Not terribly surprised though.

Dr.D
February 5, 2009

You get the impression that they do not realize that they squander whatever credibility they have the more they dither. Several years ago, I had real hope for Anglicanism in the USA, but now I think it looks like a lost cause. I am truly sorry.

And all for a lack of courageous leadership, because they all wanted to play it safe, and “stay in communion with Canterbury,” rather than in communion with Jesus. What a terrible shame!

Christopher Hathaway
February 5, 2009

The road to laodicea is paved with koinoinia.

Fuinseoig
February 5, 2009

Christopher, I must disagree with you.

Road bowling has an end, an agreed-upon result, and a definite method of reaching that conclusion.

As the Irish Road Bowling Association is delighted to announce, the 2008 European Champions are once again Irish, after the German triumphs of 2000 and 2004, and they are looking forward to the competition in Italy in 2012 🙂

“http://www.irishroadbowling.ie/carbnews.htm

The successful staging of the thirteenth European Bowling Championships, crowned by the splendid achievements of the Irish competitors, was the stand out highlight in an exhilarating twelve months for the ancient game. The May Bank Holiday spectacular will live long in the memory as colour and pageantry mixed with raw athleticism in a grand coming together of the bowling nations of Europe. The climax on the Bandon road, on that rare, glorious summer’s evening of Sunday May 4, could hardly have been bettered from an Irish standpoint. The planning had been meticulous and the preparations thorough, but the end product still had to be delivered. When it came it was stupendous. Not for twenty years and five European Championships had an Irish senior men’s team taken the top spot in their own discipline. Indeed the wipe out at Westerstede 2004 had led many to believe that the superiority of the Germans was such that it could not be challenged.

Building to a crescendo that could not have been foreseen, player after player produced extraordinary performances, throwing shots of prodigious length in eclipsing their competitors in the five man matches. Many had shone in the grim early morning trial sessions, some intermittently, but on the day that mattered all excelled. David Murphy beat 2000 metres with his ten shots and secured the individual Gold, the most sought after medal of the championships. Closing in with silver was the remarkable Bantry man Mick Young while the great Armagh stalwart Michael Toal won bronze. Patrick O’Driscoll, Aidan Murphy, Eddie Carr, Tim Pat O’Donovan, Bill Daly and Philip O’Donovan and John Shorten contributed to the greatest ever Bol Chumann team performance in a European Championship.

It was the senior women who showed the best way forward on that momentous day. Bridging an even bigger gap, Kelly Mallon with gold, Ireland’s greatest European campaigner, Catriona O’Farrell/Kidney with silver and Dervla Toal with bronze, were magnificent as they brushed aside the much vaunted continental opposition.”

Come 2012, will the Anglican Communion be able to say as much?

FW Ken
February 5, 2009

Akinola, Orombi and Venables and the others have bound themselves to the homosexualists and Christ-deniers of the gay cults of the United States, Canada, and England. Within a decade, their membership growth will slow, heretics will gain voice among them, their congregations will fragment, and, untimately, the flock will scatter.

If God is merciful, things will get bad enough quick enough that these failed leaders might – just might – listen to the prophets He will surely send them. If they listen and repent, renouncing Canterbury and all its works, there is hope.

The remaining question is how the American congregations these castrati have taken under their care will fare. I know that were I am member of one, connected in any way to the Anglican Communion, I would have a letter of resignation from “church” membership on my rector’s desk by noon tomorrow.

I suppose it’s possible there’s a grand plan underneath this drivel. If there is, I will be glad to be wrong. However, as of today, the degraded gay cult of the Episcopal Church in the U.S. seems to have won the day. The cancer has metastasized.

Bill2
February 5, 2009

The ONLY reason outside of the usual Anglican fudge that would cause “optimism” is the potential end of “gracious restraint” at GC2009.

KJS climbed down from the comminque immediately after the meeting like she knew TEC polity would be full forward gunk.

Of course the flaw in the theory is that there’s been no “gracious restraint” on TECs part and they’ve still been “compliant” according to the Instruments of “Unity.”

Truth Unites... and Divides
February 5, 2009

CJ: “Have conservative Anglicans been played? It sure feels like it.”

I’ll just repeat my comments from the previous thread. It’s equally applicable to this thread.

Bill (not IB): “I was wrong. Badly wrong. I truly believed that the Global South primates would do or say SOMETHING. … But the lack of action against the revisionists is truly saddening.”

I have to sadly agree. GAFCON/ACNA, while clearly better than ACI and the Communion Partners, are simply showing themselves as the upper tier of a two-tier form of Institutionalist-Idolatry-Enabling.

Too bad. So sad.

And, in a worldly, secular sense I’ve got to tip my hat off to the ABC Rowan Williams. He is the champion Grandmaster and he brilliantly finessed the GS/GAFCON archbishops into docilely walking into the Canterbury cage as if they were low-brow, mouth-breathing primates.

They got all excited after the Dar Es Salaam Communique in Tanzania in 2007. The 9/30/07 deadline was set for consequences! Yeah, wrong. The ABC scuttled it. No primates meeting to administer consequences.

Lambeth invitations issued to TEC (sans +VGR). Indaba agenda. The ABC to GS: “We missed you terribly. Hope to see you in 2018.”

ACNA formed. ABC to GS: “We’ll have a deeper, mediated solution. Don’t you worry. But ACNA is not to proselytize into TEc.” GS/GAFCON blinks, swallows hard, and tucks tail. There is unanimous consent to the Alexandria communique.

Rowan played the GS primates well. (According to worldly standards). He knew the GS/GAFCON/ACNA folks lacked the spine and the courage of their convictions.

As I said in a previous MCJ post, it’s not Rowan who was the key, it was the GAFCON/GS primates. And they were scarcely any better than the Windsor bishops at the New Orleans House of Bishops meeting in 2007.

“Bawk, bawk, bawk, bawk, bawk, bawk, bawk, bawk, bawk.”

We already knew that ACI and the Communion Partners were cowardly chickens. But it’s just a crying shame to see the GAFCON/GS do the chicken dance too.

ann r
February 6, 2009

Perhaps this is strategy, to maintain the Canterbury connection until the lawsuits have played out. As long as the departing dioceses and parishes can claim the Canterbury connection, they can claim in court they have not departed the church. Would love to see TEC lose as many of those suits as possible.

Allen Lewis
February 6, 2009

Yes, it is a shame how the Global South primates got rolled over koinonia. What a sick joke that is!

Sasha
February 6, 2009

The trouble, ann r, is that TEO, AOofC and the others will then recognise what’s happening (if they haven’t already) and start a whole line of lawsuits meant to last 50 years or longer so that they can in the meantime try to destroy the Global South with their apostasies by sending “missionaries”, work with the UN and the Western Marxists to openly attack true Christianity more and more (eventually making it illegal in the name of “political correctness”, “inclusivity” and appeasing Islâm), and otherwise undermine ALL true branches of the faith they can possibly tackle!!

Remember Mr. Nick Henderson (one such “missionary” who’s been doing his best to BUY a bishopric in the Diocese of Central Africa – and who has already wrought much havoc consequently!!)! Remember the new “bishop” of Canberra, who – in spite of his training under Philip Jensen – is already talking of “consecrating” women all the way up the ladder (and once you start there, the sodomites, lesbians, etc. follow just as VGR said!!). Remember how TEO started on its evil path, and then one wonders if it’s worth keeping ANY connection to the apostate “Canterbury Communion”. NO, I no longer wonder – I’m thoroughly convinced that it’s time to terminate ANY AND ALL conceivable vestiges thereof!!!!

Indeed, I can already say “Death to the Anglican ‘Communion’!!” – let the dead bury their dead!! If buildings and possessions are to be stolen by the Western Communists, the Doukhobor solution is available – fight fire with fire as they’re doing to us!! God will reward those DEVILS in the end as they deserve – we go onwards to serve Him instead!!

[It will be a great pity if in His Wrath Our Lord Deems it necessary to destroy the magnificent mediæval and other cathedrals and high churches, most certainly; however, if He Was Willing to let His Jerusalem Temples be totally destroyed, what can we expect, ALAS???]

obituary
February 6, 2009

Sasha your above “rant” speaks volumes to me here in Canada. I was thinking of joining the ANiC but was wavering. I didn’t feel comfortable with WO and the liturgies. (They have retained the liberal ACoC’s BAS) So it’s the Independents http://www.independentanglicanchurch.ca/ or some other group that uses a BCP that resembles Cranmer’s original and is in no way connected with the Archbishop of Canterbury. Thanks.

Truth Unites... and Divides
February 6, 2009

Christopher Hathaway: “The road to laodicea is paved with koinoinia.”

Sigh. Koinoinia is such a beautiful word too. Unity is such a wonderful concept too. Both terms co-opted and hijacked by the Adversary and his minions to fleece the sheep.

Me: “We already knew that ACI and the Communion Partners were cowardly chickens. But it’s just a crying shame to see the GAFCON/GS do the chicken dance too.”

The ABC and the apostate heretic revisionists must be thoroughly enjoying their chicken dinners.

Truth Unites... and Divides
February 6, 2009

“Archbishop Peter Akinola is pleased, I’m pleased, Henry [Orombi] is pleased” with the outcome of the meeting, the Presiding Bishop of the Southern Cone, the Most Rev. Gregory Venables, told The Living Church.

++Akinola, ++Venables, and ++Orombi are all pleased with the outcome of this meeting.

What else is there to say? Sasha?

CANA-ite
February 6, 2009

Well, Susie-Q at “Integrity” (http://walkingwithintegrity.blogspot.com/2009/02/integrity-responds-to-primates.html) isn’t happy, so I guess the primate’s meeting wasn’t a COMPLETE waste.

Ed the Roman
February 6, 2009

Bill Tighe nailed it; the rest of us have been playing variations on a theme.

Katherine
February 6, 2009

I’m keeping an open mind at this point. I was informed at church this morning (official announcement) that the Global South bishops are having a post-meeting today. I expect they will continue as they have been, with GAFCON as their focus, and with less and less focus on official Anglican Communion meetings and so on. And the ACNA bishops and churches will definitely be part of that. Combined with TEC’s probable official apostasy at either this GC or the next (and Integrity is gearing up to see it happens this summer), they’ll just let TEC slip away.

We’d all like it to be a clean process. It isn’t going to be. If you feel strongly called to join another communion, answer the call. If not, hang in there a while and do what you can working with believers where you are. But don’t put money on a TEC offering plate, even indirectly.

Peter C.
February 6, 2009

Katherine, this has been going on now for 30 years. How much longer do you expect people to “hang in there” instead of going out and finding someplace to worship Jesus without having to worry about this whole mess? We got out 16 years ago and have no regrets. I keep up with Anglican developments for the same reason my mother watches Dr. Phil: morbid curiosity.

Dale Price
February 6, 2009

Personal Prelature for the TAC, anyone? Sounds like now is as good a time as any.

HLP
February 6, 2009

My impression is that the cancer in the organ is metastasizing into the larger organism. For some inexplicable reason, the patient never chose to undergo the surgery that was required to remove the disease before it could spread.

Now, we want to have mediation with the tumor. “Let’s talk about how you and your host body can work things out.”

Katherine
February 6, 2009

Peter C, I’m out of TEC, and have been since before Gene Robinson’s consecration; but I’m in an Anglican parish and now part of the ACNA effort. I grant that it’s still iffy, and we have a long way to go, but TEc’s shenanigans affect me only so far as it affects how many are going to leave them and join us. You felt called to another communion, and may God continue to bless you. My interest in TEc is a lot like yours: forensic.

Jim McNeely+
February 6, 2009

I once believed the Global South Primates had balls.

When did they have them removed?

-Jim+

Truth Unites... and Divides
February 6, 2009

I once believed the Global South Primates had balls.

When did they have them removed?

-Jim+

(Answer in Jeopardy Quiz Show Format):

What is, “When did they cut their junk off themselves?”

The Little Myrmidon
February 6, 2009

Anglican Communion = Train Wreck in Slo-Mo.

Peter C.
February 6, 2009

Dale, why promote the anti-traditional notion of “personal prelature” instead of bringing them in either under terms similar to the Pastoral Provision or, better yet, integrating them directly into the Latin Rite so that they can provide a counterbalance against some of the more “liberal” Catholics?

Allen Lewis
February 6, 2009

I know that the Continuing Churches have had their own ego problems, but at least they have never wavered in their belief that Canterbury is unecessary.

With the shakeout that is occurring because of the TAC application to Rome, there is more realignment within the Continuum. It will take a while, but I can hope that eventually the ACC, the ACPK and the UECNA will be reunited with each other. That cannot come soon enough.

For those who have a member parish of one of those groups nearby, may I recommend that you check them out? The Shelter In the Storm site has links to the main websites of ACC, APCK and UECNA. You might want to check them out. Also Shelter has “safe” churches listed by city within each state (where information is available). Please note that affiliation is listed along with the parish information. Also note that some REC, AMiA and even “safe” Episcopal churches are listed. Also parishes within the ACA and other Continuing groups are there.

Feel free to explore.

Yes, most of these churches are not very large. But they all have one thing in common: they exist to worship the Lord of Lord and King of Kings and to make disciples in his name. You cannot go wrong with a mission like that. Nor do they believe that Canterbury is the end all and be all. Most have no connection to it and do not want it.

Ed the Roman
February 6, 2009

Well, the remarried bishops would be a really fun point.

The only personal prelature I’m aware of is the FSSP, which has a charism for the Missal of 1962. I don’t see what the TAC does or has that distinguishes them sufficiently both from the Anglican Use AND from the Latin Rite generally to warrant separate treatment.

I also don’t see what they want that is not in the AU provision other than keeping their remarried clergy, and retaining married clergy in perpetuum. Latter maybe, former no.

Daniel Muller
February 6, 2009

The only personal prelature I’m aware of is the FSSP, which has a charism for the Missal of 1962.

The only personal prelature that I am aware of is Opus Dei.

I don’t see what the TAC does or has that distinguishes them sufficiently both from the Anglican Use AND from the Latin Rite generally to warrant separate treatment.

Location, location, location. The Anglican Use has so far only been an American phenomenon (does the phrase “Magic Circle” ring a bell?); in fact, its Rite II, which thankfully I have never actually seen, has a lot of 1979 Prayer Book language if not content.

William Tighe
February 6, 2009

The FSSP isn’t a personal prelature; it is something like a “consecrated society” or “society of consecrated life” — and so it operates in any Catholic diocese only with the permission of the diocesan bishop and only if it follows such terms for and limitations upon its actvities as he may choose to impose.

The only PP is Opus Dei, which reveived that status in 1982. How a PP relates to the diocesan bishop is (according to the provisions in the Latin Code of Canon law relating to PPs) to be defined in the statutes of that PP.

Rumor has it that the proposed PP for the TAC (and pitentially other Anglicans, e.g., Forward-in-Faith/UK, when they make their probably exodus from the Church of England ca. 2013) will require celibate bishops, but allowed married men to be ordained to the diaconate and priesthood, with no possibility of marriage or remarriage after ordination. All current TAC bishops will either be (re)ordained, perhaps conditionally, to the priesthood, or else retire into “lay communion” (as they have all privately indicated to Rome their willingness to do [although one may be having second thoughts]), the latter in the case of those with tangled marital histories.

One reason for a PP is that a fair number of Catholic bishops, especially in other English-speaking countries than the USA, are profoundly unsympathetic to any “special provisions” for Anglicans; indeed, the English Catholic bishops rejected anything like the Pastoral Provision for England ca. 15 years ago. Some dislike them because they see all Anglicans as Protestant, others because they are “too conservative,” and still others because they would threaten to disrupt their polite and tranquil relations with local Anglicans/Episcopalians.

The strange paradox is that the argument against creating a kind of sui juris Anglican Catholic Church in communion with Rome rests on the fact that the Ecclesia Anglicana before the Reformation was part of the Latin Catholic Church, without any distinctive ritual or canonical peculiarities; but to create a PP with a different marital discipline for its clergy than has ever been received in the Latin Church does seem to distinguish it from the Latin Church in such a way as to make one wonder why it is still within the Latin Church.

Let’s revisit this matter in late April/early May to see how things have turned out. Verbum satis sapientibus est.

FW Ken
February 6, 2009

Actually, the Anglican Use is fully integrated into the Latin Rite, subject to the Ordinary of their locale.

Daniel Muller –

The Parish Mass at St. Mary the Virgin, Arlington is quite similar to the BCP ’79, with the critical difference being the Roman Canon for the Eucharistic Prayer. However, the ceremonial, music, and overall reverence of the Mass clearly distinguish it from other parishes I’ve been in. I heard Mass once at OL of the Atonement in San Antonio and can say the same of that AU parish.

Daniel Muller
February 6, 2009

I heard Mass once at OL of the Atonement in San Antonio and can say the same of that AU parish.

Well, except that Our Lady of the Atonement offers only “Rite I” along with a couple weekly standard-issue (2003 Roman Missal) Latin Masses. My point was to illustrate that the Anglican Use Latin Rite is at this point an American phenomenon.

I am pleased to hear that you appreciate the music. 😉

Bill (not IB)
February 6, 2009

“The Parish Mass at St. Mary the Virgin, Arlington is quite similar to the BCP ‘79, with the critical difference being the Roman Canon for the Eucharistic Prayer.”

I have to admit that this is less than encouraging. The ’79 BCP is so filled with revisionist doctrines that adhering to it can hardly be considered a virtue. (The “Baptismal Covenant” is a prime example.)

If, on the other hand, the Anglican Use were based on the 1928 BCP…….

And I’d like to offer an alternate title to this post, Chris:

“Bowling for dollars”

Rob Eaton+
February 6, 2009

Chris,
When you ask “Why?” and answer your query is it in
reference to the archbishops being “pleased…pleased…pleased”, or in reference to the last part of that same section of quote where Venables has discerned the action of the Holy Spirit and the resulting “calmness and peace” among the orthodox?
And if you don’t see the connection between the two, why not?
Does it sound like Venables to automatically attribute peaceable calm to the fruit of the work of the Holy Spirit?
That really is the big question here, and nothing else that is currently buzzing this thread and others. Can Venables, Orombi, and Akinola (and others) be TRUSTED to discern the presence and work of the Holy Spirit? (I suppose the question should also be asked, Is there anyone here so far who knows them well enough to say, besides their heretofore well-articulated and well-documented firm stand for the Word of God?)
But back to the Holy Spirit discernment trust — If they cannot be, what makes their consecrated ministry any different than any revisionist bishop or archbishop? But if they can be, of even if up to this point we thought they could be trusted in this way, then reasserters hoping and dreaming and praying and working for a consistent Anglican world-wide witness to faithful, biblical teaching and ministry must take pause…PAUSE….in this apparent unexpected satisfaction on their part, and take some time (not too long, I don’t think) to ask the question of the LORD in prayer, “What is the Holy Spirit up to?”; “Is this consistent with the Holy Spirit’s dynamic?”; “What’s going on, Lord?”
Then we should be asking Venables the question, “What do you mean, “freshness of the Holy Spirit”…”something different here”…?
That’s what I’m going to do….spend some time in prayer over the next few days with those questions. I certainly did not expect to hear Greg Venables say that. So I’m going to check that out with the Lord Jesus.

FW Ken
February 6, 2009

Bill (not IB) –

I can’t tell any significant difference between Rite I and Rite II in the AU, apart from Elizabethan English., certainly nothing theological. To be fair, I sang in the choir at St. Mary’s, so I was generally at the parish Mass, Rite II. Fr. Allan said Rite I at 8am and (maybe) 6pm. I like Rite I, which includes the Collect for Purity, certainly the most beautiful prayer in English, but I haven’t heard anything a Catholic would consider heretical in either AU Rite (of course, an Anglican would, but there you are). In fact, Rite II and the Novus Ordo are essentially the same. A Catholic may not like the Novus Ordo, but we don’t get to call it heretical.

Minuteman
February 6, 2009

Daniel Muller I believe that you are very wrong about Anglican Use. Let me check with one of my “betters” and I will get back to you.

Whitestone
February 6, 2009

February 6, 2009
Statement of Bishop Robert Duncan
Moderator of the Common Cause Partnership
Bishop of Pittsburgh

We are thankful for the time spent by the Primates of the Anglican Communion in wrestling with tragedies confronting all God’s children, among them the situations in Zimbabwe, Sudan, Gaza, and in the global economic crisis. The suffering in these situations is tremendous and commands the prayerful attention of every Christian.

In North America, though the immediate temporal circumstances are in no way as severe as those in other regions, the spiritual consequences of innovations in Faith and Order are staggering. We are thankful for the many Primates (and Provinces) who continue to stand with those of us in North America who are attempting to remain faithful amidst vast pressures to acquiesce to beliefs and practices far outside of the Christian and Anglican mainstream. We appreciate what was clearly an extensive discussion of the North American situation within the whole of the Primates Meeting. We are also grateful for the public recognition by the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Windsor continuation group of the desire of the “coalition” (the Common Cause Partnership) constituting the new Anglican Church of North America “to be Anglican and to be in relationship with the Anglican Communion.”

There is honesty in the written Communiqué concerning “our damaged and fractured relationships,” and recognition that the fabric has been torn. There is yearning for “accountability,” even “robust accountability.” Those of us in the Common Cause Partnership who live face to face with the stark realities of unjust depositions, lawsuits, and forced evictions from church buildings and homes are acutely aware of the need for resolution. We are committed to help the process however we can. We are aware, however, that the innovations, punitive lawsuits, and abuses of the Episcopal Church continue to take a toll. They proceed unrepentant and undeterred. We of the Common Cause Partnership and the emerging Anglican Church in North America will do our part for the good of the Anglican family we value so much.

The vision of a biblical, missionary and united Anglicanism in North America – indeed in all the world – is undiminished among those who bear the vision. The coming together of the Common Cause Partnership into the Anglican Church in North America will proceed. Our commitment to our missionary partners all around the world will continue. Already larger than twelve Provinces of the Anglican Communion, we will work together in koinonia with all who are willing to work with us. We are trusting in our Lord Jesus Christ, trusting that our commitment to the mainstream of the gospel witness will soon enough result in confirmation of our rightful place within the mainstream of the Anglican family.
http://www.united-anglicans.org/

Floridian
February 6, 2009

NOTE – The ACNA is, as +Duncan writes, “Already larger than twelve Provinces of the Anglican Communion…”

Whitestone
February 6, 2009

Captain Yips has his usually astute analysis of the Communion’s Communique:
http://captainyips.typepad.com/journal/2009/02/a-thousand-flower-wither.html

LaVallette
February 6, 2009

In the immortal words of John Donne:

“….therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee…” …

Daniel Muller
February 6, 2009

Daniel Muller I believe that you are very wrong about Anglican Use. Let me check with one of my “betters” and I will get back to you.

Well, now, I have never been an Episcopalian and do not even own any Prayer Books, just hymnals, so if I said something wrong about the 1979 BCP in its relation to the BDW, I am quite open to correction.

Otherwise, let me know; I have an idea that I may have said something too tersely and thus open to a variety of interpretations. I notice that Dr. Tighe posted virtually the same comment after one of mine, but with, as they say in Spanish, “the luxury of detail.” And a lagniappe of Latin to boot.

Minuteman
February 6, 2009

Daniel Muller- my friend hasn’t answered me yet. It is my understanding that the Anglican Use liturgy was based on the Church of England Communion Service which was the old Latin Mass, translated into English with a few Protestant changes in the 16th C. It was very carefully reviewed and changes were made to bring it back into conformity with the Catholic Church. The website for The Anglican Use Society is http://www.anglicanuse.org/ and the page for the Order of the Mass is /http//www.atonementonline.com/orderofmass/Rite1.html
I hope that I have been of help. May I assure you that there is NOTHING Rite IIish about it. We also use Anglican chant and on the “links” page is a reference to the Anglican Use Gradual which gives the Minor Propers for each Sunday Mass throughout the year. Try it.

Daniel Muller
February 7, 2009

on the “links” page is a reference to the Anglican Use Gradual which gives the Minor Propers for each Sunday Mass throughout the year. Try it.

Actually, I proofed the entire AUG note for note as well as against the texts of the Graduale Romanum several times before its final publication. I am not sure how many others mailed in periodic submissions to David Burt, but I do think that you will find the melodies and the Latin references impeccable. 😉

Now, as to what the exact relationship between the Rite II Anglican Use and the BCP Rite II may be, I plead ignorance, and, despite having a BDW not ten yards from me at the moment, invincible ignorance at that. The only Episcopal Eucharist that I ever attended was a Rite II approximately 25 years ago, and it occurs to me that I may have attended a Rite II Anglican Use Mass 10 to 15 years ago when I went to St. Mary the Virgin in Arlington — if not 20 years or so ago at Our Lady of the Atonement when they still did such a thing. That is not much for my poor memory to go on, especially as I prefer the precise and grown-up English of the Rite I AU. Or, better yet, Latin.

As for Anglican chant, suffice it to say I cannot help but sing “Crrross perpen | diculah | to the | pa-ve-ment,” inexplicably not found in the British Highway Code — I said that my memory was bad — whenever I cut across the street.

Ed the Roman
February 7, 2009

That was very refreshing.

Peter C.
February 7, 2009

Bill (not IB), the Litrugy of St. Tikhon is based on modifications to the 1892 BCP.

FW Ken
February 7, 2009

Looking back over this thread, I’ve left one thing unsaid.

Katherine –

Despite my harsh comment, I truly hope you are right, since that would be the best thing for you and yours. I’m not optimistic, but hopefully I’m wrong.

William Tighe
February 8, 2009

Rob Eaton wrote (above):

“Can Venables, Orombi, and Akinola (and others) be TRUSTED to discern the presence and work of the Holy Spirit?”

The same question might be asked, with compounded interest, of a priest of the Diocese of San Joaquin, who chose to stay within TE”C” when his own bishop and diocese shook its dust off its feet; and now has left them (and himself) under the “apostolic oversight” of an apostate ex-RC priest who favors communion for the unbaptized, WO and maybe (he has been anything but clear on this matter) SS. “Physician, heal thyself.”

Rob Eaton+
February 10, 2009

Dr. Tighe,
You completely misread. I’ve said to you a long time ago where I think you ere in that regard, and I won’t repeat it.

But now you do me the disservice of presenting a quote out of context that alone suggests I have the opinion that these three holy men of God cannot be trusted to discern properly and accurately the work and leading of the Holy Spirit.
The larger comment is one of admonishment in the irony of how so many can so quickly dismiss these Primates.
Did you not read the point of my comment? When the observed is deemed counter to the norm, then (before any fickle shunning) stop to listen to the heart of Jesus. That is exactly what I do, because, indeed, “there is no health in me.”

Cor Iesu, in quo sunt omnes thesauri sapientiae et scientiae,
R. miserere nobis.

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