could be disproportinate because the Israelis don’t target civilians…that must be what she meant, right?

You don’t have to hate Palestinians to kill ‘em. They have demonstrated by decades of action that they need killing. It is unfortunate, but the choices are to either kill them first or let them keep killing Israelis, which they have demonstrated beyond doubt that they will do as long as they have the opportunity. Those are the ONLY rational choices. Making nice with Palestinians in hopes that they will change their murderous ways has proven, again over decades, to be irrational.

I want to see Ms. Schori live somewhere in southern Israel for a couple of years, somewhere like Ashkelon.

Might change her view a bit, but I doubt it.

As far as I am concerned, 300 Palestinian deaths to counter 3 Israeli deaths IS a “proportional response.”

Are ssome Palestinians Christians?

Yes, but not any of the ones who can influence security policy there.

Bluntly put, Hamas needs to get really fucked up, hard, this time, and following that I’d drop a hole bunch of Arabic leaflets reminding the locals that they got the shit kicked out of them AFTER the truce was abandoned, and if they don’t like getting kicked they should not allow truces to be abandoned.

The Israelis had, after all, been leaving Gaza alone.

“I challenge the Palestinian forces to end their rocket attacks on Israelis.”

Um, that’s just great, Kate. You “challenge” them to stop. Gee, why didn’t anyone else think of that approach before?

Ed the Roman: “Bluntly put, Hamas needs to get really fucked up, hard, this time, and following that I’d drop a hole bunch of Arabic leaflets reminding the locals that they got the shit kicked out of them AFTER the truce was abandoned, and if they don’t like getting kicked they should not allow truces to be abandoned.

The Israelis had, after all, been leaving Gaza alone.”

(Hand over mouth in mock horror). Ed! Such unedifying and inappropriate language! Where’s a T19 elf or a SFIF commenatrix when you need one to maintan proper decorum, civility, and charity in an Anglican blog??? Such vulgarity and crudeness is unbefitting a professed follower of Christ.

Incidentally, I’m glad to see that the international media is responding with the same vigor, balance, and condemnation about the Israeli bombings of Gaza as they did about the Mumbai massacre.

I’m with you, Chris.

Christians can and should hate the Palestinians’ actual behaviors and tactics. The evidence is conclusive.
They do not want peace. They seem to live to hate and fight.

The sons of Ishmael still seem to be the hostile warring people foretold by the angel of God in Genesis 16:12… (see also Genesis 25:18)

They are hostile to each other as well as to the Israelis. They trample each other to death on their religious pilgrimages…blow up innocent people with bombs… They carry on wars forever…from generation to generation.
It seems they never forgive or forget.

Whose land is it anyway?

Before the ‘Palestinians’ ‘owned’ the land, it ‘belonged’ to the Jews, before that it ‘belonged’ to the Caananites, and before that it ‘belonged’ to generations of people going back to Noah’s sons, Shem, Ham and Japeth.

The land was promised by God to Abraham and his seed many years before God led the children of Israel back from Egypt and gave the land to them.

From the laws in Leviticus, the Jewish people were taught the truth about the ownership of land and money. ‘Their’ land and wealth belonged to God, not to them. By God’s gracious generosity, they got to keep 90% of the increase and profit from working the land, but they had to return 10% to God.

The Jews understood that the land and its resources, their health, their progeny, the harvest and profit from trading, even their own bodies, souls and spirits were all gifts, blessings, a kind of stewardship and responsibility before God.

They were to return their tithe to God with thanksgiving…to share with the poor and so not let greed or pride harden their hearts.

The law taught them how to be wise stewards in their use of the land in order to preserve it as their heritage from Him…to see beyond their own wants and needs to respect the needs of future generations.

Land was divided among the tribes, and every 50 years, in the year of Jubile, the land that had been ‘leased’ reverted back to the original owners and tribes.

In the 50th, the land was not planted or harvested. It was a year of rest and restoration.

We seem to have forgotten that God owns everything and maybe that’s why every 50-70 years or so, we have a major depression/recession…and maybe that’s why there is so much conflict and sickness of spirit, mind and body.

Back to the Palestinians….Under centuries of Arab ‘ownership’, the land of ‘Palestine’ became a wasteland, due to either disinclination, ignorance or inability to preserve or improve it.

The Israelis have worked hard, planted forests, industry and greatly improved the productivity and have prospered despite the continual harassment of Arab and Palestinian neighbors.

That’s just the plain facts.

Chris,
This post is so spot on and I echo your thoughts about the Palestinians. And like you, I know it does not please our Lord for the distain I feel for that bunch.
Homeland-baloney. They are arabs and have many homelands; Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, etc.
Go get em Israel!!!

TU&D,

Where’s a T19 elf or a SFIF commenatrix when you need one to maintan proper decorum, civility, and charity in an Anglican blog??? Such vulgarity and crudeness is unbefitting a professed follower of Christ.

Due, I’m Ed the Roman, remember? Such vulgarity and crudeness also cuts to the chase and when used sparingly adds emphasis.

I’m also Ed the CDR, USNR (Ret).

Dear Ed the Roman, retired commander of the US Navy Reserve,

I was just joshing and teasing you. And in a way, ultimately skewering SFIF and T19′s heavy-handed and unbalanced moderation of comments and commenters.

BTW, I fully agree with your prescription.

What I still struggle to understand is *why* – *WHY* the rather unfair and unbalanced attitude toward Israel. See especially Abp Tutu’s… uh… “emission”. What on earth?!? But again *why*? Why can people not bring themselves to be fair toward Israel and – quite frankly – Jewish people in general?

This is not to say Israel never deserves critique. Or that Israel always good, Palestinians always bad. But the Left seems perversely stuck on the reverse formula: Israel bad, everyone else good.

I mean… is the Left predominantly Muslim? (Nope.) Religious? (Well… debatable.) Arab? (Not so far as I can tell.) So why the anti-Israel line eh?

Heehee. I more than suspected as much.

Rick, the Left is, in fact, religious. Worshipping only themselves, they recognize only two sacraments: sodomy and abortion.

You will usually find the left on the opposite side of most American policies, both here and abroad. They are fundamentally anti-American, so whatever the bulk of the country supports the left opposes, and vice-versa.

I propose that Kate bring out her only artillery and accuse and depose the Israelis. Sure, there’s no canon for it, but what the hell, there hasn’t been one for anything else she’s wanted to do. And then she can threaten to sue them for their property, too.

Of course, she could just shut up and lower the CO2 level, also.

Wonderful folks, our friends in Hamas;they just legalized crucifixion in time for Christmas

The only people on the Palestinian side I feel sorry for are young children who are not yet able to decide for themselves what they believe.

The rest, however, have chosen their path and must live, and likely die, with the consequences of those choices. Warfare is terrible, but as the Bible tells us, the civil authority does not carry a sword in vain. It is not only the Israeli government’s right, but sovereign duty charged to them by no less than God Himself, to defend its people against the murderous actions of the Palestinians. My prayer is for a swift and decisive victory for Israel. And if that means a large body count on the Palestinian side, so be it. They have made their choice.

I challenge Tutu or any of these silly Episcos to drive to their churches or sleep in their houses, or hold a worship service when rockets are being fired at them. How dare they appease these murderers. How dare they criticize those who oppose evil.

I have to fight the urge to hate them so much because I am a Jew, as well as a Catholic. I try to remember them at the part that says “and those who trespass against us”, but I also remember to pray for God to confound their plans.
Most of the people who are protesting on behalf of the Palestinians would acrtually love to see Israel destroyed. I wish I had a nickel for ever blog comment I have seen saying “the Israeli experiment should be dismantled” or words to that effect.Chris, your blog, by comparison, is a tonic for my soul.

Amen, Christopher. Perhaps I lack your sense of guilt, but I will freely admit I have no use for the Palestinians. Too many rockets against Israelis, too many suicide bombers, too many lies from the Palestinians.

“War crimes” by Israel???? Disproportionate???? My aching *ss.

There is no question — absolutely none — to anyone with a grain of sense, that the Palestinians have been committing hundreds of acts of war (indeed, war crimes) against Israel by targeting noncombatants (usually termed “civilians” in the press.) That the Palestinians have been less than spectacularly successful says nothing on behalf of the Palestinians. A proportionate response to terrorist acts of war would be equivalent attacks targeting the other side’s noncombatants. But Israel has done none of that. They have gone after combatant terrorists and their infrastructure in Gaza. In my view, Israel would be entitled to capture and hold any land from which terrorist acts of war are repeatedly launched against Israel. A conventional military campaign agaisnt Gaza, even taking it in its entirely, would be justified and would not have to meet any test of proportionality, since the goal is to end the acts of war launched from there.

There have been some Palestinian non-cambatant casualties. But this is due solely because Hamas hides behind supposed civilians like the cowardly scum that they are.

Let us be clear: Every noncombatant casualty on both sides in the conflict between the Palestinians and Israel is chargeable to the Palestinians. One characteristic of the unlawful combatant (terrorist) under international law is that he targets your noncombatant population. Another identifying characteristic of the terrorist is that he tries to make it impossible to distinguish him from the noncombatants on his side. He does this for two reasons: survival, and propoganda. Although he rejects all civilized laws, he knows the West operates by certain rules of civilized warfare, and he takes advantage of them. Noncombatant casualties on his side are desired to the extent that they are useful for propoganda purposes.

Des Tutu has been an isufferable scold for years. He has now progressed to the point where he calls good evil, and evil, good. He, and others like him, facilitate and protect the actions of terrorists like Hamas. They do all they can to keep nations like Israel from defending themselves. They are entirely one-sided, never raising their voices to protest terrorist war crimes against Israel, but waiting to protest the legitimate actions of self defense by Israel. These facilitators of terror have the blood of civilian casualties on their hands — that of both Israeli and Palestinian civilians. If the anti-American (actually anti-Western) left did not apologize for terrorista, civilian casualties would not have propoganda value to terrrorists like Hamas; the terrorists would have less incentive to co-locate with people who are (or can be portrayed as) civilians; and Israel could do a better job of militarily crushing their attackers.

I’ve no use for clergy who run interference for terrorists, either.

Apologies for typos, but not for substance.

Pat Buchanan actually said last night that Israel’s response to the rocket attacks was disproportionate because “yes, the Palestinians did send rockets into Israel but they hadn’t killed anyone.”

My wife and I looked at each other in amazement? The Palestinians should be excused because they have lousy aim???

My God.

Ok, the Israeli response was “disproportionate”. Was it justified?

Yes.

And who does Bishop Kate think she is, issuing statements on political affairs? The pope?

Don’t answer that!

It’s pathetic when an officially-edited Egyptian government newspaper runs a sensible column on the conflict in the Middle East and who’s behind it (Muslim Brotherhood, Iran) while Jefferts Schori blathers nonsense.

Let Palestine be extinguished completely from the face of the earth and cease to exist as a nation, land and people.
Let every remembrance of it be removed.
Let that word become as a curse and never again to be spoken or named.
Let all the inhabitants come to Jesus and find a new identity in Him, not in any other land, nation, tongue or tribe.
Let His law of love, truth and life rule over them forevermore.

Ed, TU…aD, Whitestone and Minuteman have said almost everything I conceivably could say – the only trouble is that EVERY LAST CHILD above age 2 (maximum) is already inculcated to hate Israel and the West. Islâmic (and Palestinian) thinking DON’T provide for proper upbringing in the way ours does; thus, ugly and evil in itself as it is, even killing children older than the toddler stage of the Muslims is justified, alas…

Israel could as well drop the atomic bomb (or several neutron bombs) upon Gaza City and wipe out the whole population at one stroke (and confound the entire UN, the whole body of Islâmic states, and all those Communist toadies and lickspittles in academe, Western “Christianity” et al – the last of which should be deported to live 25 years in the Islâmic and Communist worlds they so love…). That the Israelis haven’t done as much speaks volumes in their favour – bravo Israel!!!

Excellent comments likewise from Peter C., Rick and Janjan, while we’re at it…

…even killing children older than the toddler stage of the Muslims is justified, alas…

Sasha, I’m afraid I have to dissociate myself from that bit.

I do not by any stretch dissociate myself from you.

Sasha, I understand the frustration, but lets not go there. It’s never justified to kill children intentionally.

Just remember Jesus’ warnings for those who would corrupt them.

(cont’d from above)

May they, like Christians, be pilgrims who seek a country, (Hebrews 11:19-16), who if their earthly house is destroyed, have a house not made with hands. (II Corinthians 5:1-2)

Folks, you have to remember that KJS is of an age where a lot of people bought into the “Coke Commercial”/”John Lennon” mentality.

Remember,

“I’d like to build the world a home
And furnish it with love
Grow apple trees and honey bees
and snow-white turtle doves
I’d like to teach the world to sing
In perfect harmony
I’d like to hold it in my arms and keep it company
I’d like to see the world for once
All standing hand in hand
And hear them echo through the hills
‘Ah, peace throughout the land’”

and (emphasis added)

“Imagine there’s no countries
It isn’t hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace…..”

I can recall all too clearly the “give peace a chance” rallies, where everyone sang and felt oh-so-good about how their protests would heal all the ills of the world. What was lacking back then was common sense, and a realistic view of events. What happened when the US withdrew from Vietnam is a classic example; instead of a peaceful reunion of North and South, the body count rapidly swelled to hundreds of thousands as the “victors” completed a “peaceful” (sarcasm/irony meter reading off the chart) takeover.

I can’t fault anyone for wanting to achieve peace; it is what we are commanded to do, as evidenced in the Beatitudes (“Blessed are the peacemakers..”). But there’s a major, major difference between seeking peace, and ignoring the criminal/terroristic behavior of one side simply for the purpose of saying “we can all get along”. I don’t recall KJS issuing any kind of statement asking Hamas to lay off the rockets while they were launching them in large numbers into Israel; somehow she determined that they weren’t doing anything wrong/warlike. But let Israel take steps to defend itself against agression, and suddenly their actions are “out of proportion”.

This statement from the Presiding Squid is simply one more nail in the coffin of TEO. There’s no point in getting upset about it, or trying to take any action. Anyone who can treat the Canons the way KJS has cannot be given credit for having any integrity, common deceny, logical thinking, or clear sight.

Charlie Chan say, one can only pull tail of tiger for so long, and should not be surprised at result.

The Anglican Curmudgeon has also posted on this topic, quoting an article by Caroline Glick of the Jerusalem Post. He calls our attention to the SILENCE of Western liberal media on the passing of Shari law including CRUCIFIXION adopted by Hamas for Gaza:

“Thus in Palestine today, the same people who danced in the streets after seeing the gruesome pictures of September 11, 2001 are supporting execution by one of the most gruesome and prolonged means ever devised by the mind of man. In doing so, they are following in the recent steps of those at Dachau, of the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, and of the Japanese in the Sino-Japanese war. The only other regime reported to use crucifixion today is the Sudan.

And the liberals are silent—but not because they want to hide anything. Rather, since it is not Western torture, like waterboarding (1,190,000 results on Google), or humiliation in Abu Ghraib (2,790,000 results), crucifixion by the Palestinians (4 results) just doesn’t rise to the level of their attention.”

Guys, be careful what you ask for. All of your sabre-rattling rhetoric won’t change the mind of some little kid who watches her parents burn to death in a house adjacent to a legitimate military target. She is lost at that point. The fact that someone else is contravening the commandments does not absolve us when we do. In our human estimation, we sometimes see no alternative, but we’d damned well better be prepared to face our maker when we make those choices. Seven times seventy seems absurd to me as well, but it is clearly what we are commanded to do.

Quite right. And if the parents of that little kid demand to know of God why they died in such a horrible way, it will be asked of them why they voted to have a genocidal organization lead them. And if that kid dies in a suicide bombing or something, the fact that he saw his parents die horribly will not mitigate the fact that he is a murderer. Because he had a choice.

Maybe they didn’t vote for Hamas. Maybe they’re just a typical family trying to get on in the world. Maybe they’re stuck in Gaza because nobody else will have them. Maybe, it’s (humanly) unreasonable to expect direct victims of an atrocity to act justly. But as I said earlier, we’ve all gotta face the man some day. My read of the New Testament indicates that we as Christians for all of our failings, should strive to set something of an example. All I am saying is that we should be circumspect in our (potentially humanly justifiable) bloodlust.

I’ve been in a lot of places where people were killing each other. The stuff that I witnessed sometimes made me want to kill some of those people too.

After the fact, I could not justify those urges in a Christian light.
I really think that it is our duty to try to rise above the fray.

Eyore, since Israelis have been the victim of atrocities at the hands of Palestinian terrorists many times over the last few years, do you give them a pass if they act unjustly by your standards?

Those of us who criticize the Palestinians would equally criticize Israel if it waged war the same way. Just imagine what Israel could do if their intention was to inflict maximum damage on the noncombatant population of Gaza.

If Israel used Hamas’ targeting methodology Gaza would be depopulated. This is not an unimportant distinction.

Janjan and Ed, I fully understand your viewpoints and disagreement relative to killing even older children, and you’ve my fullest sympathy! I wish with all my heart that I could disocciate myself from those same words of myself.

Alas, a case in point where soldiers had postively NO CHOICE but even to kill children is the Irân-Iraq war of the early 1980s: Irân sent older children and adolescents into the front lines in an attack rôle!! Reprehensible and repugnant as everybody, including the Iraqi soldiers themselves, found it (many had to afterwards seek relief in counselling camps of some sort, IIRC), they just HAD no choice but to ‘mow them down’, most unfortunately!!…

Truly, when somebody is put into the position of HAVING to kill children in a case of “kill or be killed”: I can hardly imagine a worse or more repugnant scenario than that one!!!!

Let THAT show just how intrinsically DEPRAVED a “religion” Islâm happens to be! [I sure hope that Christians of no sort, real or nominal, ever sank to THAT kind of level at any time in history (though it's all too likely something of that sort has happened, knowing Mankind's innate EVIL...).]

While I’m at it: please let me make it clear that in general:

I find the thought of killing ANY children, intentionally or otherwise, just as repugnant as anybody else.

What I’ve all this time been trying to express is relative to when one is positively FORCED into such a situation (especially if it MUST be intentional, utterly evil as it is, like in battle as happened between Iraq and Irân). Otherwise, I’ve no such wish with any children, Muslim or otherwise. God FORBID!!!

Alas, Islâm is just such a religion as to put the rest of us into having to face such situations, as has been seen for close to 1,400 years…

Gunners in Somalia did the same thing: set up a machine gun in the middle of the street, then drape and surround themselves with neighborhood children. They counted on a young American kid’s hesitating to fire on a mound of adolescents.

eyore -

I agree with the substance of what you are saying, at least as far as our attitudes are concerned. Killing is always a bad thing, although at times it’s justified, and even necessary. Revenge, per se, is not a moral option. Justice is, however, and for that reason, I would never agree that we should “rise above the fray”. Events in this world concern us all, and to live in this world means to live in relationships with one another, from one-on-one relationships to the relationship with the whole culture. In war, innocent people die. Of course, if we take seriously the Christian understanding of the fall and original sin, “innocence” is a dicey concept, but still, we can posit the absence of personal guilt in some Palestinians. Is it different, however,from a drunk driver killing you as you innocently walk to the store.

I think the outrage here (and other places I’ve seen) is the fundamental disparity of judgment in this situation. People have a right to defend themselves, except, it seems, when they are Jewish. Decency would suggest you don’t put military installations in civilian areas, but Hamas does and then the Israelis take the heat for taking out the installation. Reality is that evil exists – Hamas is the evidence of that – and to refuse to deal with it – by war-making, if necessary – is material cooperation that is itself evil. We went down that road in the 1930s, and World War II resulted. The Arab world was, largely, sympathetic to the Nazi/Fascist side. Failure to acknowledge and address that will, it seems to me, lead to another world conflict. Where does morality lie in that?

“older children and adolescents into the front lines in an attack rôle!! ”

That’s different.

“They counted on a young American kid’s hesitating to fire on a mound of adolescents.”

Yes, but they were also counting on the young American kid being unable to take head shots. This did not always work out for them.

I just can’t shake the nagging feeling that God is about to lean over the front seat of his ’64 Chevy II, swinging a rolled up newspaper in his right hand at us as we bicker in the back, shouting: Dammit, kids, don’t make me stop this car!

We feel justified in our actions, but the rules are the rules.

Are there any Christian ministries active in Palestine, trying to bring Palestinians into the Kingdom of God, where Christ’s goal is being brought into reality, that people from every tribe, language, people and nation would stand before the throne, and say, Salvation belongs to our God?

Islam is so evil that they steal the brains of their children by brain-washing them with their misbeliefs and extreme radical intolerance. They never forgive. They do not tolerate disagreement. It is a religion of the flesh, of hatred, misogyny, domination, murder, death.

GW Bush should have been soundly rebuked and admonished for calling islam a religion of peace and for allowing the koran to be read alongside the Holy Bible during the aftermath of 9-11-01.

Only someone spiritually blind would have done that.

That was a betrayal of Truth and of Jesus Christ Who IS the Truth.

The Palestinian Bible Society seems to be active in at least making The Word available(according to their website), and there is some other outfit who I can’t seem to remember who seem to specialize in evangelizing areas where they are almost certain to be martyred (like afghanistan, Iran, Yemen etc). I’ll try to find out who they are.

The Israeli veterans of the first war with Lebanon came back so demoralized from what they had to do. I spoke to a number of them when I was over there. They would hand out food to women and children who would then blow themselves up. They had never seen anything like that before, and they were totally unprepared emotionally to deal with it. So many of these vets ended up homeless on the beaches of Tel Aviv because Israel, at the time, was not able to deal with the Traumatic Stress Syndrome of these soldiers, who had had to shoot at women and children.
That is the most disgusting thing about Moslim warfare…..it makes decent people monsters, and that is unforgivable.

[...] wonderful Christopher Johnson of MCJ sums it all up for me– what he said. The Truth is out there, but the lies are easier. For now. [...]

I think it was Golda Meir who said that she could forgive the Palestinians for hating the Israelis enough to kill Israeli children, but not for hating Israelis enough to kill their own.

Eyore: “I just can’t shake the nagging feeling that God is about to lean over the front seat of his ‘64 Chevy II, swinging a rolled up newspaper in his right hand at us as we bicker in the back, shouting: Dammit, kids, don’t make me stop this car!

We feel justified in our actions, but the rules are the rules.”

Eyore, what would you say to God and about God who commanded genocide (every man, woman, and child) in the Old Testament?

[...] wonderful Christopher Johnson of MCJ sums it all up for me– what he said. The Truth is out there, but the lies are easier. For now. [...]

Tuad, take it as you will. I think we as Christians are up to the task. I’ve lived in South Africa, I’ve first hand shared the Afrikaaner’s plight, and I understand the point of view of Israel, not just as an ARMSCOR customer, but as a nation surrounded by “philistines” who wishes to maintain its civility.

Guess what, it don’t make any difference. “[we] Shalt Not Kill”. It pisses me off to no end that the uneducated bastards in Islam don’t have to adhere to this law, but guess what, it’s the damned RULES!
If we concede that we can go ahead and kill people who are REALLY ASSHOLES, and not turn the other cheek, as the Lord God commands, we are not christians.

[i] “[we] Shalt Not Kill”.[/i]

The commandment is against “murder”. The Palestinians aren’t targeted because they are “assholes”, but because they are shooting rockets at the Israelis. That puts the Israel response outside of the realm of “murder”.

It’s one thing to turn the other cheek when you are the target; when you fail to defend the defenseless, it’s called cowardice, not morality.

When a child who is not carrying a weapon is killed, it’s murder. I know some jerk might be hiding behind her, but it is not something I want to stand up in front of God and defend as right.

Sort of interesting, isn’t it, that nearly nobody was beatified as the result of his excellent marksmanship, or his prowess with the lance, but go peaceably to your death at the hands of your enemies with the conviction that you are standing firm in the face of adversity from a MORAL standpoint, and you are a shoe-in.

I think there’s a reason for that. Our passions tell us to rationalize killing those that we feel justified in killing. God just tells us not to kill. Maybe, that’s what that “…judge not, lest ye…” stuff is all about.

Eyore: “When a child who is not carrying a weapon is killed, it’s murder.”

Deuteronomy 20: 16-18 “In the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them – the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites – as the LORD your God has commanded you.”

Eyore, I assume that there were Hittite, Amorite, Caanite, Perizzite, Hivite, and Jebusite children who were not carrying weapons who were killed as a result of God’s commandment.

Eyore, did God command “murder” and have the Israelites commit genocidal “murder”? Repeating my earlier question: Eyore, what would you say to God and about God who commanded genocide (every man, woman, and child) in the Old Testament?

Tuad, last I checked, Deuteronomy predated Christ. Remeber? the rules changed a bit at that point. I think it might be part of the reason why we’ve been trying to convert the jews for the last couple of millinea.

If you can truly say that killing a child who does not know why she is being killed, and can’t do anything about it is just, you’ve missed something important along the way.

Eyore: “If you can truly say that killing a child who does not know why she is being killed, and can’t do anything about it is just, you’ve missed something important along the way.”

I would ask you to recall God having King David’s and Bathsheba’s first baby killed, a baby who did not why it was being killed, and how God is a just and holy God, and if you don’t understand that, then you’ve missed something important along the way.

Tuad, this is bordering on prooftexting. I think you know what I’m trying to get across, and I know from your previous posts that you are theologically literate. T

Therefore, I challenge you to show me where Jesus said that it’s an ok thing to be killing children because of what their parents believe/do.

We are not jews, so relying soley on old-testament references is fatuous.

Eyore,

You are repeatedly dodging the question which is not surprising since it’s too painful for you to answer it.

Furthermore, Christians of all Faith-Traditions recognize both the Old Testament and the New Testament and the unchanging, immutable nature of God.

One more time: Eyore, did God command “murder” and have the Israelites commit genocidal “murder”? Repeating my earlier question: Eyore, what would you say to God and about God who commanded genocide (every man, woman, and child) in the Old Testament?

Tuad, what I would say is this: That was then, then came Christ.

As far as I know, Christ never suggested genocide as a viable option in any situation.

I am not in a position, nor would I presume to “judge” God. What I can do is to take His teachings to heart.

Among those is that which I will not bore you with reiterating.

I’ve watched a lot of people die violent deaths.

It’s something that doesn’t strike me as holy.

If God wants to kill them, it’s obviously His prerogative, but I would not be so presumtious as to interpret his will such that an innocent dies by my hand.

Eyore: “If God wants to kill them, it’s obviously His prerogative, but I would not be so presumtious as to interpret his will such that an innocent dies by my hand.”

Good. Then please be ever so kind to also not be so presumptuous in judging others (in this case the Israelis who are defending themselves against a violent jihad which targets Jewish innocents).

Thank you.

1 John, 3:15

Does that verse apply to Moses?

Does that verse apply to American Christian soldiers in WWI, WWII, Korean War, Vietnam War, Gulf War, Iraq War, and actually, for all Christians everywhere and in the past, present, and future who have killed others in the line of duty?

I dunno. I am, however, confident that it is the Word of the Lord and as such not subject to summary dismissal.

Face up to it, we’ve signed on to a pacifist religion. If you wanna be a badass, check out Telaviv or Mecca.

“Face up to it, we’ve signed on to a pacifist religion.”

I’ll face up to the fact that you’re a judgmental pacifist.

When one is out of useful things to say, one resorts to ad hominem argument. (And by the way, anyone who knows me would giggle at the concept of me as a pacifist.)

And by the way, I think that giving those who have both killed and made the ultimate sacrifice a bye in the name of “duty” is disingenuous. We all have to make our peace with God. What the state says is secondary.

As I said about 10 posts ago, the urge to kill someone who is anathema, does not justify the act.

I won’t insult you with a translation diatribe about “kill” vs “murder” in the sixth commandment, but if you have more than a cursory familiarity, you’ll be forced to admit that the latter is far from literal insofar as the hebrew goes.