Bottom line. The Episcopal Organization is not Christian.

Christopher, have you found a non-TEc church yet?

Not officially. But I’ve got a pretty good idea which one it’s probably going to be.

I know from personal experience that cutting bonds of affection is painful. But please keep us posted about where you intend to “take refuge”.

I like the new design, by the way. Do you think you’ll be able to rebuild your archive of “Anglican Investigator” stories? I miss them.

Pax Vobiscum.

It’s obvious: these people have thrown Our Lord OUT OF THEIR “church”!! The verses for them are St. Matthew 23:37-39 (end).

More than that, TEO has truly become a synagogue of Satan – and the incident where “another dismissed the authority of Scripture and the Church’s teaching as irrelevant, because, he said, (I kid you not) he had heard the voice of God when Ms Jefferts Schori spoke! – an over-excited response, no doubt – but virtually the whole room then endorsed his comments with a standing ovation…” proves it perfectly!!

They’ll not see Him again until they either truly repent and with their hearts say “Blessed is HE who cometh in the Name of the LORD!” – and not before – OR at the Last Judgement when He’ll damn them!!

They’ll not make it by substituting “her” or “it” or “the one” – as so many of them DO, even in their own “Bibles” (NRSV is one particular example!!) – and at the Last Judgement, they’ll be cast into the Lake of Fire (unless they truly REPENT!!!!), being told when they protest how much they did for Him that He NEVER KNEW THEM!!!

Margaret,

Will do. As for the CJ:AI’s, one of these days I intend to start getting them ready for publication. But I’ve got one more to add to the collection.

Sounds like it was a Methane Development Goals project that achieved its desired gaseous result.

This Fuerher adulation is getting to be a bit much, though, isn’t it?

Somebody tell me again why the Papacy is such a problem.

Christopher –

I agree with you: the root of the problem is a rejection of the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Trinity in the Person of Jesus. I used all those words because they reflect the various theological conflicts that shaped Christianity over the first few centuries: the relationship of human and divine in Jesus, the relationships within the Trinity, and what “Incarnation” looks like lived out over centuries in a worldwide Church. At what point did Anglicanism begin to deny the Incarnation in practical terms, if not in so many words?

I meant to say also that Ed’s comment, though facetious (I suspect) does gnaw at one of the roots of the problem: how is authority given and used in the Body of Christ – a fully Incarnate community that reveals the Risen Lord to the world?

I’ve said each time this comes up that I believe our differences boil down to the method through which Grace comes to us – how does the salvation won by Christ on Calvary get into this time and this place? In this specific instance, how is authority given and used in the Church? How does Jesus govern His Church? Who says what the word of God is?.

Satan “believes in” God. …

We all believe in Jesus.

My understanding is that the correct formulation in Christian — i.e., incarnational — theology is generally “believe” rather than “believe in.” We believe God, and because of that we “believe in One God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth, and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, … the Holy Spirit …” … the trinitarian God.

My question is: sure we pretty much all believe in Jesus, — only the writers of television specials for Easter release do not — but do we believe Jesus Christ?

I’ll take the Episcopal Church and neo-gnosticism for $1000, Bob.

The word ‘believe’ in the old days meant commitment. Today it does not. Times and word meanings change.

In the BCP 1979 Burial Services note the difference

Rite One: “he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live; and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.”

Rite Two: “Whoever has faith in me shall have life, even though he die. And everyone who has life and has committed himself to me in faith, shall not die for ever.”

Belief today is not enough. We must commit ourselves.

You really nailed it, Chris (as usual).

“It was never about women’s ordination, homosexual priests and bishops or any other single issue. These were only symptoms, they were never diseases. Cancer begins long before anyone realizes it is there.”

What some might find amazing is that some of the Benny Hinn crowd, i.e. Joyce Meyer in particular, actually preach against trusting one’s feelings and emotions especially when it comes to following a direction in which our feelings contradict the Word of God.

I believe that the disease of which you wrote is the lack of trust and faith in the Word of God, the form of Holy Writ and more importantly in the person of Jesus Christ the Logos. All manner of belief, doctrine, dogma must be aligned against the canon of Scripture. In this day and age, I believe that only Scripture can be viewed as our reliable guide in understanding who Jesus is and what he requires of us.

The primary beginning of faith is an act of God, a supernatural act that accomplishes spiritual rebirth and impartation of the Revelation that Jesus is Lord.

For that, there is no substitute. I believe this is at the root of TEC problems…for many have been ceremonially baptised, but their eyes, hearts, lips, lives have not been ‘circumcised’ ‘regenerated’ redirected toward the Way/Love, Truth, Life, Kingdom and Will and Word of God.

The Revelation and Rebirth must be maintained by nurture – by abiding in Christ, by first love devotion, teaching/preaching, prayer, study, discipline, accountability, obedience, sacrifice, crucifying the flesh, fellowship, sharing, giving…the Seed doesn’t grow automatically, our will, intention and effort is involved…and this must be helped by God.

This is my get back to basics week.

Amen, Gayle.

Scripture must enlightened by the Holy Spirit and a rightly oriented heart/mind/soul in order to ‘rightly divide’ the Word of Truth.

That is, Scripture must be opened and enlightened/illuminated….

Gayle – I would not be amazed; many teachers I encountered in the charismatic movement taught precisely that we cannot trust in feelings, but in the Word of God. Of course there are loonies among charismatics, as there are in all groups, but I also found solid scriptural teachings on many matters.

“she is that rare bird, a liberal who believes in tolerance and diversity”
I hope that the liberals catch the irony of this statement. They who pride themselves – nay define themselves – as tolerant of diversity.
The evidence suggests that the Rev. Dunbar was wrong, however. K. Schori is, rather, tolerant of people who are fundamentally like herself. Gender, race, morality are human traits that she can ignore, but if people truly disagree with her core ideas (such as believing that dioceses not align under other archbishops) then she is completely intolerant. Thus she is as intolerant as possible, given the circumstances.

The rebirth of L.Ron Hubbard is complete…
Intercessor

The problem presented here is right at the opening: “Anyone who expected to see an ogre in action…” Ogre’s aren’t hairy, ugly giants or beasts just as heretics and devils aren’t red with horns, a pointy tail and pitchforks. They are ‘Miss [or Mr.]Congeniality. Formidably able [people] of charm and intelligence to whom many respond with enthusiasm.’ Beware!

Tom, Thanks. You have helped me figure out what it is that bothers me about a man I know at The-Church-We- Used-To-Go-To,-But-Which-I-Will-Never-Set-Foot In-Again™ He is all congeniality and helpfulness, but I have picked up some bad vibes.

Boo-freaking-hoo,

We really didn’t mean to crucify +Duncan, we just wanted to rough him up a bit. So sorry that he’s dead; but he did deserve it, being that he refused to adhere to the “Official Position of TEC©™® (patent pending)”.

Oh, and we’re grateful to KJS for her wonderful leadership. She provided a guiding light to steer us safely through the “foul-orthodox-reasserter-fundamentalist” snares which might have diverted us from our One True Goal©™®, the imposition (by force and violence, if necessary) of the MDG’s.

I miss the “recent comments” feature…

Re: Ed the Roman,

As a fellow Roman Catholic, I find not a thing wrong and everything right. Others may disagree.

It’s really a problem if you’re someone that denies truth itself and thinks you can make it up. That is, if you’re a part of the Postmodern Attack, which in its belief that words, even the Word, is simply text, does not merely fall into Atheism (without God) but the worse apostasy of “alogism” (a – without, logos – the Word -> Without the Word).

I don’t see any convincing evidence that Jefferts Schori “believes in tolerance and diversity.” Far from it. This observer was distracted by her personal intelligence and charm, as he calls it.

Do you think the Evil One and his minions attract people by putting their grotesque and twisted souls on public view? I suspect, rather, that they are very attractive at first. Would I follow someone who looked like an ogre at first sight? No, at the beginning people are drawn in by superficial attractiveness — why, some of these people are really nice — and later, when the ugliness appears, people are anesthetized and don’t see it.

Ed the Roman said:

“Somebody tell me again why the Papacy is such a problem.”

A “bad” leader like the Pope tells people what they have to believe. A “tolerant” leader like KJS tells them what they want to believe. Big difference.

Another dismissed the authority of Scripture and the Church’s teaching as irrelevant, because, he said, (I kid you not) he had heard the voice of God when Ms Jefferts Schori spoke! An over-excited response, no doubt – but virtually the whole room then endorsed his comments with a standing ovation.

The above is the NutShell version of the tragedy which is the Episcopal Church in the US. So many of those who are supposed to be shepherds and guides and sound teachers have been deceived into being false shepherds, blind guides, and foolish teachers. Woe to them on the Day of Judgement, for those who profess to teach bear a greater responsibility. They will be held accountable for all the souls they have misled!

Allen, a priest I knew, who is unfortunately now a revisionist, told me once that he’d been told in seminary there were probably more priests in hell than any other group. I wish he’d listened to himself. God is merciful, but woe be to he who has led the least ones stray, as the Lord Himself said.

The creeds are still in their book so TEC is still Christian. I can see them going non-Christian some day though.

That said, this:

It is not that she is not theologically educated: she dazzled the crowd with knowing references to the Athanasian Creed and the doctrine of perichoresis. But she employs such language only to evacuate it of its content – as theological baubles brought down from the attic to ornament a theological perspective that can only be called sub-credal, for it falls below the level of what the Constitution of the Episcopal Church speaks of as “the historic Faith and Order as set forth in the Book of Common Prayer”. In so doing she perpetuates the illusion that the Church can be united as a spiritual community without coherent doctrine.

is a pretty good description of Episcopalianism today and perhaps always, from the loopholes in the Articles to the Latitudinarians to the ‘Enlightenment’. ‘Don’t believe in that crap? Neither did they.’

Back when the surrounding society was more orthodox Christian so were they, to fit in. Now that it’s not…

Today… a saint’s name here, a chasuble there, a snippet from a church father over there, putting on the airs of the infallible, Catholic church… as ornaments decorating a unitarian tree.

This is not a country for young men but rather a game for old boomers. The kids see it’s self-refuting and don’t go to that church.

“Back when the surrounding society was more orthodox Christian so were they, to fit in.”

Yes, but: for the Episcopalian leadership, the surrounding society centers on the Hollywood Liberal to New York Liberal axis. If they were going to mirror the views of the country at large, things wouldn’t be quite so bad. And the Episcopal Organization would not be losing members faster than Lehman Brothers lost money.

I’ll take issue with you in one respect, YF. I don’t know how things stand in the Church of England but the Episcopalians have the Creeds in their prayer book(which I refuse to dignify with the glorious name Book of Common Prayer) for the same reason that the UK has a St. George’s cross in its flag. It’s there, it’s been there for as long as anyone can remember and leaving it alone is a lot easier than taking it out.

To Episcopalians, the Creeds are nothing more than professional jargon, something to be mindlessly chanted before the Offertory and then Communion. The Episcopal Organization is Christian in the same way that Shriners are Muslims.

there were probably more priests in hell than any other group

bishops… don’t forget bishops, whose skulls, it is said, pave the floor of hell.

FW Ken,

So do I. I’ll get in touch with the Evil Anglican Media Overlord(Tomorrow Never Dies was, in fact on TV here a week or so back, how did you know?) and see if we can’t arrange something.

BTW, people, the Charts page no longer links to any charts. Unless this is a temporary aberration, it is as I predicted. There will never be any more 10 year ASA, Baptised and Income bar graphs showing the slow decline of just about every church in the country.

“what it meant to be assured of God’s unconditional love and approval.”

I knew I had God’s unconditional love, but I never knew I had his unconditional approval. Maybe I will go out and have that affair since I have his unconditional approval.

The creeds are still in their book so TEC is still Christian. I can see them going non-Christian some day though.
The creeds may be in their book but if they are not believing the creeds in their hearts, they are not Christians. Revisionists have for decades redefined nearly every phrase of the creeds to mean something very different from the original intended meaning–sometimes the opposite, in fact.

FW Ken, I suppose bishops are still priests, so it’s all-inclusive. Maybe the proportion goes up with episcopal consecration, though?