MUSLIMS?

Saturday, August 21st, 2010 | Uncategorized

This is the reason (well, one of them) why so many of us don’t like you.  You refuse to let go of that mindset so brilliantly described by John F. Kennedy.  What’s mine is mine and what’s yours is negotiable:

While the dispute over the proposed Cordoba House near New York City’s Ground Zero has been highly publicised over the past few months, less known is the debate over Spain’s Cordoba Cathedral, which was formerly the Great Mosque of Cordoba.

For some time now, Muslim groups have been trying to convince leaders of the Cathedral of Cordoba in southern Spain to allow the Catholic church to be used for both Muslim and Christian worship as the site still remains significant for many Muslims.

You lost, said Bishop Demetrio Fernandez.  Man up and deal with it.

The Bishop of Cordoba, Demetrio Fernandez, says sharing the space with Muslims would be like a man sharing his wife with another man.

“There are things that are shared and others that are not, and the Cathedral of Cordoba is not shared with Muslims,” said Fernandez, according to the Spanish-language Europa Press.

Fernandez told the Europa Press back in June that his church reportedly has “a good relationship with Muslims” and wants to collaborate with Muslims in search of “peace, justice and coexistence between peoples”.

“But that is one thing,” he said. “[It's] another, very different, to want to share the same temple for worship, which is neither possible for Muslims nor for Catholics,” he stated.

Spanish Muslims won’t take No for an answer.

Despite the bishop’s rejections, efforts to open Cordoba Cathedral for Muslim prayer and worship are ongoing.

Mansur Escudero, who is leading the push for Muslims to pray at the Cathedral, said the issue is not only important for Muslims but for humankind.

The Spanish convert to Islam told CNN recently that the sharing of Cordoba Cathedral would be “a beautiful paradigm of tolerance, knowledge, culture”.

“We want it to be a place where anyone – whether Muslim, Christian or Jew – can do his meditation or his internal way of worshipping, or praying or whatever he wants to call it,” he added.

Tell you what there, Mansur.  Get the folks in charge of the Saudi entity to allow the free and open practice of the Christian religion, including the establishment of churches, inside the borders of the Saudi entity, convince the “Palestinians” to allow Jews to freely pray on the Temple Mount rather than beside it and then get back to me.

Not before.

Where are you going with this, Chris?  Are you suggesting that the West should lower its religious toleration standards to the Muslim level? 

No, I’m not saying that at all.  I’m saying that if the Muslim world ever wants respect from non-Muslims, it needs to raise its toleration standards to the Western level.

“With what measure ye mete…” as the Lord Jesus Christ said.  You have no right to expect me to display a moral trait that you refuse to display yourself.

38 Comments to MUSLIMS?

FW Ken
August 21, 2010

can do his meditation or his internal way of worshipping, or praying or whatever he wants to call it,

Of course, any human being can walk into any Catholic Church (if it’s open, of course, but that’s another matter) and meditate, pray, worship, or whatever he wants to do internally. No one is checking your Catholic creds at the door.

The issue is organized non-Christian worship, but one suspects Escudero knows that. One also suspects that he knows that “… tolerance, knowledge, culture” are not big parts of the Islamic paradigm.

So is he an idiot? Or a liar?

Perpetua
August 21, 2010

Big Peace had an interesting post today about how the Cordoba Christians lost their cathedral to the Muslims by a similar process that started with “sharing” before. He quotes from Reinhart Dozy’s A History of the Muslims in Spain about the time after the conquest by the Muslims in the mid-8th century:

All the churches in that city [Cordova] had been destroyed except the cathedral, dedicated to Saint Vincent, but the possession of this fane [church or temple] had been guaranteed by treaty. For several years the treaty was observed; but when the population of Cordova was increased by the arrival of Syrian Arabs [i.e., Muslims], the mosques did not provide sufficient accommodation for the newcomers, and the Syrians considered it would be well for them to adopt the plan which had been carried out at Damascus, Emesa [Homs], and other towns in their own country, of appropriating half of the cathedral and using it as a mosque. The [Muslim] Government having approved of the scheme, the Christians were compelled to hand over half of the edifice. This was clearly an act of spoliation, as well as an infraction of the treaty. Some years later, Abd-er Rahman I [i.e., the “Muslim prince” in Ghosh’s redacted narrative] requested the Christians to sell him the other half. This they firmly refused to do, pointing out that if they did so they would not possess a single place of worship. Abd-er Rahman, however, insisted, and a bargain was struck by which the Christians ceded their cathedral….

carl
August 21, 2010

Chris Johnson

You have no right to expect me to display a moral trait that you refuse to display yourself.

I’m not sure what you are getting at with this statement, but it is biblically false. There are all sorts of moral traits we are commanded to display regardless – like “Pray for those who persecute you.” “Love you enemies.” “Turn the other cheek.” “Give him your coat as well.” Some clarification would be helpful.

carl

Sasha
August 21, 2010

All hail to Bishop Demetrio Fernández!!!! He knows what Islâm is like as a religion and what Muslims are like as human beings!!!!

Mr. Christopher Johnson: I agree 100% and more with your reciprocal demand that other religions (I’d push for THAT, not just for Christianity – let Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, and the others too!!!) have their Western-standards rights in Saudi Arabia (and also all other Muslim lands like Somalia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Irân, Iraq and all the others!!!) BEFORE we can consider giving Muslims any automatic rights to their mosques and madrassahs in the West. Until those Islâmic countries completely capitulate that way, we ought to completely crack down and revoke ALL things for Muslim “worship” (which really is the same as worshipping the Devil!!!)!!

As these Muslims whine their “me, me, me” and “us, us, us” plus their taqiyya, kitman, etc., we instead ought to turn such a completely deaf ear to their demands AND attack them for every single thing they do to us – and ideally, we should deport them all from the West, recall all our Westerners from their “dar ul-Islâm”, nationalise all Muslim assets here and cut off all commerce with the Islâmic world!! I’m most serious about this – and for every terrorist act they unleash past a certain date, we punish them with annihilating one of their cities in return – guaranteed, with NO EXCEPTIONS, no pity, no mercy!! Let them learn exactly what you’ve quoted above from Our Lord: they’ve proven they don’t believe in or accept anything other than the most brutal force possible!!!

While we’re at it: here’s a tale about General John Joseph “Black Jack” Pershing which I believe you’ll all find interesting (many of you already know it no doubt): when he was stationed in the Philippines and dealing with a Muslim uprising around 1911, he happened to catch a sizeable number of insurgents and took them prisoner. He – if the tale be true – first forced the terrorists to dig a deep trench which was to become their grave, upon which they were then tied up to posts execution-style. He then had his troops slaughter two pigs and butcher them, particularly saving the fat, blood, entrails and other bad parts thereof. The soldiers then coated their bullets with the blood and fat. The rebels were then executed with the specially-prepared ammunition and their bodies tumbled into the grave; then his troops poured the pig’s viscera (entrails) and the rest of the non-edible stuff upon the corpses prior to covering them up with the earth from the digging. Finally, that ONE rebel who had been spared was sent to go and tell his fellow-terrorists about what had happened. If I remember correctly, the rebellion collapsed and no more Islâmic terrorism was attempted there against the Americans for the next 50 years!!

While no doubt the “bleeding-heart liberals” in the UN and people like Obama will decry the method, the using of pigs’ lives and body-tissue in the manner given, or the whole concept of killing prisoners (made especially notorious by the Nazis, who openly flouted the Geneva Convention), I’ve no doubt that Muslim fanatics and their families would not appreciate being treated like this – unless it be to show them how we’ll avenge their slitting the throats of our men, women and children (in itself so heinous as to call for extreme measures!!!). That’s what I advocate be done to all such – and as to those who protest, let them all f— off and DIE!!!

Christopher Johnson
August 21, 2010

You’re quite right, carl. I am to do all these things. But I am to do them myself. They are to come from me. If you sin against me, repent of what you did and ask for my forgiveness, I’m to freely grant it to you. But sinning against me and then demanding my forgiveness based on whatever Bible verses you can quote me is a different matter. Absent your repentance, I don’t owe you anything at all.

Sasha
August 22, 2010

Well said, Mr. Müller!!! The whole point of their wanting the Cordova Cathedral back is to extirpate any and ALL traces of non-Muslim existence beforehand – they want to take it back and PERMANENTLY and eternally convert it ‘in toto’ back to a mosque and NOTHING ELSE!!!!

One of the tenets of Islâm and Islâmic people is that they ‘ipso facto’ are superior to anybody and everybody – and everything – else, no matter what the actual facts prove!!! Any and all weapons of rhetoric, force, deceit, etc. that forward its EVIL cause are not only welcome but encouraged – nay, COMMANDED from its followers!!! [That's one reason why their people are so completely distrustful that when doing business with you (especially Arabs), they feel it necessary to look into your eyes from as little as 40 cm. (16") distance!!]

No, the ONLY thing that works with them is a categoric, firm and merciless NO, NO, and NEVER to any and all of their requests that serve themselves!!!!

LaVallette
August 22, 2010

TAQQIYA!!!!

Allen Lewis
August 22, 2010

They just never stop, do they??

Katherine
August 22, 2010

The mosque in Cordoba was built in part with stones and columns from the Christian Church of St. Vincent, which the Muslims first used part of and then took over and demolished for their rebuilding. (I don’t know if the church was catholic, since I don’t know if the Visigoths had become Nicene Christians before the Muslim conquest.) After the reconquista, the Christians build their new church at one end of this massive mosque. The rest stands, including, according to photos, the mihrab, pointing towards Mecca.

I think the bishop is right. The two beliefs are not compatible in one worship location. The Muslims don’t want to slip into a pew in the Catholic church and pray to Allah quietly. They want to unroll their prayer rugs and prostrate themselves in front of the mihrab. Maybe they even want to have Friday sermons there, in which the imam will denounce Christianity and everything about it.

Katherine
August 22, 2010

This history, by the way, is why the “Cordoba Initiative” mosque in New York is deliberately provocative.

Bill2
August 22, 2010

When the Patriarch of Constantinople celebrates the Divine Liturgy at Hagia Sophia again, call me….

midwestnorwegian
August 22, 2010

Allen – no they never stop. They are committed idealogues. Just like our POTUS. They must be conquered to be stopped.

Bill2
August 22, 2010

We can’t forget that Muslims consider all territory once conquered by Muslims to be Muslim.

Build you own building weiner-schnitzles.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
August 22, 2010

Hmmm…this raises an interesting situation. There is a “church” sitting on the highest point in the District of Columbia that was founded by Congressional charter. It is run by a marginally Christian organization known to have deep sympathies for Muslims among other things plus they have only a marginal concept of who Jesus Christ is.

While the management prances around in the main sanctuary, under the Congressional charter, they have sheltered many other denominations and non-Christian religions including a Jewish synagogue. I am not yet aware of the presence of a mosque.

The questions is, how long will it be before the Muslims establish a presence in the building? Once done, how long before the dhimmi management gives over the main sanctuary and the cresent rises over our Capitol?

Paolo
August 22, 2010

Carl, as I’m sure you already know (having read some of your posts at StandFirm), the point here is not one related to “turn the other cheek” at similia.

If it was the case, the following would hold as well:
- to the Nazi asking to deliver the Jews in your cellar, you show also those hidden in the neighborhood;
- to the thug raping your sister, you offer your wife;
- to the homosexual disrupting the Mass, you offer the parish premises in order to stage awareness meetings.

In all these cases, you are not giving a good thing
in return for an offense, as Jesus requires; instead you’re adding another injustice to the first one.
There’s no instance in which it’s right to share a church with Muslims, not even in the (impossible) case they do it first with their mosques.

So Escudero’s request is just arrogance, playing with western crass ignorance about religious matters – and he knows that very well.

The Little Myrmidon
August 22, 2010

Well, that didn’t work.

The Little Myrmidon
August 22, 2010

It seems I can’t post the comment that I’ve tried several times.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
August 22, 2010

“When the Patriarch of Constantinople celebrates the Divine Liturgy at Hagia Sophia again, call me….”

I certainly understand the sentiment – and it was the first thing that came to my mind. I would love to see Hagia Sophia returned to its rightful use. But then I realized that I don’t want a quid pro quo established.

Donald R. McClarey
August 22, 2010

“I don’t know if the Visigoths had become Nicene Christians before the Muslim conquest.”

They had. 589.

Katherine
August 22, 2010

Thanks, Donald R. McClarey.

Christopher Hathaway
August 22, 2010

There is a “church” sitting on the highest point in the District of Columbia

Stop right there, WTF! Don’t give them any ideas.

I mean, WTF, WTF?

skeptic5
August 22, 2010

Once we have drained all the oil out of their grounds we can cut off trade with the Muslims, and let them sink back into a desert feudal/tribal society. Until then I’m afraid we’re stuck with dealing with them. Unless of course the tree huggers in the US can be squelched and we can start exploiting the immense fossil fuel resources close at hand.

Sasha
August 22, 2010

Skeptic5, people have already been substituting used cooking-oil and fat for much of the diesel oil used in those vehicles run upon that fuel. Furthermore, the Nazis used synthetic gasoline throughout World War II.

Between those two things, surely one ought to be able to come up with reasonable alternatives so we can cut that umbilical cord immediately. Furthermore, we then could likely cut down much tanker traffic and thus reduce the risk of monstrous spills like that of the Amoco Cadiz or the Exxon Valdez. That way, we could put those tree-huggers (many of whom are fanned and organized around by Communists as well as Islâmic money!!!) in their place. [One thing Communists generally loathe is the whole concept of patriotism!]

Christopher Johnson
August 22, 2010

LM,

The bug has apparently struck again. If you haven’t already, e-mail me your comment and I’ll post it for you.

skeptic5
August 22, 2010

You would think it possible, Sasha, but it just doesn’t happen. If I were a conspiracy theorist I’d almost suspect that the environmental whackos actually wanted what His Geniusness Barry Hussein seems to want – to diminish the US to second or third tier status by crippling the economy (that is largely fueled by fossil fuels.)

I’m not sure that cooking oil can be produced in sufficient volume to replace much of the demand for diesel, and I know ethanol from corn is a fool’s game. But there are tar sands that have recoverable oil, and I’ve read that there’s a massive natural gas dome under the Dakotas, and a huge pool under the North coast of Alaska. All of these are exploitable if the government and the environmentalists could be gotten out of the way.

JC Fremont
August 22, 2010

The “filioque” was inserted into the Creed at the Third Council of Toledo (589, as Don McLarey has stated) in order to combat Visigothic Arianism. The bishop of Seville organized the meeting and the king at the time was named Reccared.

JC Fremont
August 22, 2010

Rather than worrying about the Cathedral of Cordoba or Hagia Sophia, why not do something about fighting for the right of the parish of St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, destroyed in the 9/11 attacks by one of the World Trade Towers collapsing on it, to rebuild. NYC has been stonewalling these Christians for years, but is in favor of the so-called “Cordoba Initiative”??? Give me a break.

J.M. Heinrichs
August 22, 2010

Sasha
That tale of Pershing is an invention of the 1990′s, possibly based on a presumed tale of the Indian Mutiny. Someone managed to trace a version to a company commander who served in the Philippines after the time of Pershing. Besides, Pershing lacked the imagination for such feats of cunning.

Dr Tighe
Why couldn’t the quid thing permit access to the church only on the feastday of Santiago Matamoros?

Cheers

Sasha
August 22, 2010

Mr. Heinrichs, I indeed had my suspicions about the tale when I looked it up; hence my saying “if the tale be true”. You’re entirely right, alas. Thank you very much for pointing it out.

skeptic5, if that happens (that the USA is reduced to 2nd- or 3rd-tier status), it will be accompanied by a massive depression where MANY other countries and people will be affected. It seems to me that a great many savings plans would evaporate into thin air on the spot and revolutions would be dangerously possible as well as a rash of crime and suicides… Yes, China and Russia + the rich Arabs could gain a lot, but it all the same could be a big poison pill for the world overall.

Ed the Roman
August 22, 2010

I’m not sure that cooking oil can be produced in sufficient volume to replace much of the demand for diesel,…

Be sure that it cannot. Not even close.

But the buses would smell GREAT.

Sasha
August 22, 2010

My point is that if some of these and other solutions (e.g., fuel-cell technology) are pursued much more aggressively and in unison (i.e., simultaneously), and obstacles to these (at least some of which are due to oil-companies and their allies purchasing patent copyrights to such plans and their further pursuit thus gets stymied!!) are ruthlessly rooted out, it wouldn’t take that long to put those Muslim mediævalists in their place.

Smurf Breath
August 23, 2010

Carl, in addition to what Chris said, the point is moot since allowing this worship would be equivalent to preaching a false Gospel. It would be like saying, “Your false religion is as valid as ours, so we will help you to promote it by providing a worship center for you”. I think Chris’ ethic is not so much ‘tit-for-tat’, which as you point out is unscriptural, but “if you are behaving unethically, I’m not obligated to roll over and say nothing, allowing others to get harmed in the process”.

Smurf Breath
August 23, 2010

By that logic, Jesus should have welcomed the money changers into his Father’s house, but he didn’t.

Paul would be another case of one who did not tolerate false teachers in the presence of the flock (Gal. 1, I Co 5).

Christopher Hathaway
August 23, 2010

The Spanish convert to Islam told CNN recently that the sharing of Cordoba Cathedral would be “a beautiful paradigm of tolerance, knowledge, culture”.

Translation:
“All your churches are belong to us”.

The Pilgrim
August 23, 2010

“…But then I realized that I don’t want a quid pro quo established.”

The story is going around Orthodox circles that the Saudis approached Putin a few years ago, to discuss building a mosque in Moscow.

“Sure,” said Putin, “Just as soon as we can build an Orthodox church in Mecca.”

The proposal hasn’t been mentioned since.

Christopher Hathaway
August 23, 2010

The Russians always knew how to behave with these barbarians.

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